Yuden00T02 The best disc made?

vbimport

#1

So how many people would class TY Yuden00T02 the best disc made?
I seem to get far more consistant burns with this media than any other.
Typical Scan.

What other media has the same consistancy of theis?


#2

It’s absolutely the best disc made… if you think PI/PIF scanning on a Liteon or BenQ is actually accurate.

Unfortunately, I don’t agree with scanning anymore, not to take anything away from T02, they are good discs. But professional equipment like CATS shows other discs are in fact better despite these liteon and BenQ drives reporting otherwise.

I think the reflectiveness of Verbatim 16x -R media is quite good, as francksoy told me (from professional scanning equipments results). T02 is actually sub par with it’s reflectiveness though.


#3

From what I understand TY uses AZO as does MCC. AZO has shown to lack in certain areas such as reflectivity but do not appear to suffer from data loss like organic dyes do. I may be wrong but this is my understanding.


#4

I just bought 2x100 T02 unbranded. No doubt TYG02 and T02 are my faves… but i can’t help getting some CMC made Verbs (MCC004, fullface printables) all the time… (Below is same image burned thrice)

First scan is 165P6SX, second is 4163, third is 111D - all burned @8x





#5

The reflectivity depends almost entirely on the reflective layer, not on the dye :wink: - MCC discs have actually one of the best reflectivity on the market.

I’m with [B]cd pirate[/B] on this. In my experience T02 is very good media and I do recommend it, but the “king of quality” reputation relies on homemade PIE/PIF scans, and these give only partial and questionable informations on the media quality as a whole. The habit to sort out discs [I]only[/I] by the way they look in homemade scans, diregarding other aspects, is unsound and has never been tested extensively against real-world behaviour.

For me a disc that shows just OK PIE/PIF (homemade) scans, but that is rock stable and is compatible even with the pickiest players, is a far better disc than one showing great PIE/PIF scans to start with, just to show that it degrades after some time or that some players have trouble reading it.

T02 seems stable, but its compatibility with players is not as good as, say, MCC02RG20.


#6

So is there a list of which discs rank where with reflectivity?


#7

I will have to disagree slightly with [B]Francksoy[/B] on this point, T02 with a good burner/optimal write speed can give very nice digital error (PIE/PIF) scans on even professional analyzers.

Also, T02 burning consistency is much better than any other currently available media I have experience with.


#8

The whole issue of reflectivity is very interesting. Friends of mine have DVD players that are so picky they would never play any discs I gave them without skipping or some issue. Then OfficeMax has the sale on Verbatim MCC03RG20’s (never had any Verbatim -R’s before) an viola they played perfect!

At the time I had been reading many of Francksoy’s (and others) posts on how the BenQ and Lite-on scans don’t mean much but TRT’s on different drive are so important, well after requesting some of these DVD’s back for testing I found the Quality scans to be horrible by forum standards (and at the time my own) but TRT’s were perfect.

And these DVD’s played without a hitch! Really makes you think doesn’t it?


#9

so pie/pif scans indeed do indicate disc-quality as you’re saying that not ok pie/pif scans imply a bad disc. of course there’re other factors involved like the players who have to read it. but that does also mean, that if a player is of bad quality and cannot read your disc, it doesn’t actually say that your burn is necessarily useless and can be quite nice on a good player. to sum it up, what does this whole thread lead us to in general? don’t use tools for pie/pif-, trt-, etc.-tests? the quality of a disc is hardware related? my player only likes this kinda disc? no hot news really, yawn :wink:

btw. yuden-t02 media had bad batches too and is completely off the market around here. besides the inner ring sometimes (or better most of the times) looked like some 5year old did adhesive it him/herself. nowadays i found mcc004 media to be working best with at least my drives. a flux in quality is obviously there in batches aswell.


#10

This is not disagreement, as I never said differently. :stuck_out_tongue:
Professional equipment indeed confirms that the low-level burning quality of T02s is very good in terms of PIE/PIF, but my point was that [I]their reputation of god-like media on this board was mainly based on homemade PIE/PIF scans.[/I]
:flower:


#11

In a way yes, but what I refer to as “not OK” doesn’t mean the usual nonsense like > 2000 PIF count or PIE-80 peaks. I mean [I]frankly out-of-specs levels[/I] as reported by a LiteOn, a Benq or a Plextor. The mere statement “pie/pif scans do indicate disc-quality” means exactly nothing most of the time without a proper context.

to sum it up, what does this whole thread lead us to in general? don’t use tools for pie/pif-, trt-, etc.-tests? the quality of a disc is hardware related? my player only likes this kinda disk? no hot news really, yawn :wink:
Not sure what’s your point. Yawn as well. :wink:

My point is simple: don’t believe the usual homemade PIE/PIF scans interpretation which is “[I]the best disc is the one that scans the best[/I]”.
That’s simplistic, unsound and plain wrong (unless you’re comparing a burn with out-of-specs levels with another one with in-specs levels - and yet, depending on the scanner used and the type of disc, even this can be misleading).
This use of PIE/PIF scans is not legit and relies on absolutely zero real-world evidence.


#12

You have no idea how I’m glad that some people like you, [B]cd pirate[/B], [B]scoobiedoobie[/B], [B]Arachne[/B], [B]DrageMester[/B]… take a different look at this whole scanning madness and start to question the homemade scanning dogmas. :bow: (BTW [B]DrageMester[/B] and [B]scoobiedoobie[/B] are not “starting to”, they were among those who actually convinced me! :flower: )

Real-world evidence is worth a thousand homemade PIE/PIF scans to judge a disc/burn actual quality.

Don’t forget, though, that PIE/PIF scans [I]are[/I] useful for a number of purposes… :wink: - no need to replace a flawed dogma ([I]PIE/PIF scans tell you everything you need to know[/I]) with another ([I]PIE/PIF scans are useless[/I])… :bigsmile:


#13

agreed. but otherwise you have to admit that a pie of 10 is better than a pie of 280 (not speaking of spikes here) using your hardware - same with pif. i agree that other factors should be checked, which leads us to…

…now what actually shall that be? i don’t think that the average guy has 10 mio. players at home and the time to test em all. so, what do you actually suggest?


#14

Still a matter of context. With two discs of the same model/batch, the scan with PIE-10 levels indicates a better burn (due to better burner/software) than the scan with PIE-280 levels (assuming the media has correct consistency).

The other way round, though, is extremely questionable (thinking that in the same scanner, the disc with lower errors is better). There are so many exceptions to this “rule” because of drives reading quirks, media characteristics etc… that it’s close to nonsense. A Benq can show you an awful scan of a disc that a Liteon will declare as great, or vice-versa. CATS can declare as excellent a disc that a LiteOn will declare crap and vice-versa. Etc…

…now what actually shall that be? i don’t think that the average guy has 10 mio. players at home and the time to test em all. so, what do you actually suggest?
What is the purpose of the blank media section? :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: : sharing experiences, because no one of us has the time, indeed, to conduct experiments 24h a day. :bigsmile:

I find [B]Megadeth[/B]'s input above as extremely informative, personally, far more than looking at dozens PIE/PIF scans: MCC03RG20s are great for compatibility with readers. Now [I]that’s[/I] useful to the community.

But TRTs are a good start, and scanning is IMO still recommended as long as it’s taken for what it is, with a (big) grain of salt.

My best suggestion: unless you’re a CDFreak and spend hours in testing and cross-checking, ask experienced people for media recommendations based on their real-world experience with discs, it will be more trustable than looking at PIE/PIF scans.


#15

yeah well. i guess opinions are different. of course cd-freaks are a great source of information, but it doesnt imply that person.a has the same results on some disc as person.b with the same hardware. imo it is a relative thing to judge on media in general. i.e. that MCC03RG20’s you’ve mentioned is not what i personally called a great media (and i still dun understand your arguments on why these should be great. reflection-layer? based on what? and furthermore what batch?) my experiences however are based on the use with my hardware reader & writer. i guess i’ll keep it that way :wink: although i have to agree on the fact that you cannot rely on scans in general.

real-world experience? i still don’t get it? if megadeath says a disc have +/- reflection, thats real-world experience?? :wink: based on what?


#16

? Have you actually read his post?


#17

so? don’t buy picky/bad dvd-players :stuck_out_tongue:

as i said before everything is hardware related, you cannot expect a great burn/read on faulty hardware. and in that case i’d like to have more details to exclude other factors than the media itself :wink:


#18

Well if you’re taking this route, no need to discuss media quality at all. :rolleyes:

It seems to me like you’re aguing just for the sake of it. shrug - we’re in the blank media section, if I’m not mistaken, and the original poster introduced the concept of “best media”, which leads to discussions about what is important to consider in defining “good media” to start with.

If better compatibility with players is not, in your view, a characteristic of better media, but only indicates that the reading problems with other discs are to blame on the hardware alone, there’s not much I can do for you.

You might as well say that there’s no need to have better roads, and that suspensions systems in cars should be more performant. LOL :bigsmile:


#19

I’ve been saying home burner scans have limited uses for years now. At any rate, YUDEN000T02 DVD+R is one of the best, undoubtedly. But so are several MCC and PVC discs.


#20

pie/pif scanning on you consumer burner does not mean much nowadays. Just because you appear to have an outstanding scan does not mean it is the best disc. PIE/PIF scanning does not measure other important factors of media like reflectivity, dye stability, etc.

Bear17, I believe it was Franksoy?) reported the TYs’s not so good reflectivity. He is right about Taiyo Yudens, In fact if you were to scan that same disc using DATARIUS you might see a different picture - In fact I know that YUDEN000T03 does not fully pass a datarius scan and in fact can be considered out of spec. The Taiyo Yuden media does not meet the range which is between 0.450-0.880 if I am not mistaken and unfortunately the TYs score below the 0.450 minimum limit, which is not good for TY media. I have never had any issues with my picky DVD players - Now example #2, you are showing a KPROBE scan which is good but what about the jitter ? Is jitter measurement really accurate on your liteons, I don’t think we can rely on it 100%. If I have to rely on recent jitter scans for my YUDEN000T03 whether burnt at 6x, 8x, 12x or 16x, they would ALL be out of spec on a datarius scan as the upper limit would be 0.09 (which would be 9% for a JC%) yet CDSPEED would report it as normal any level below 12%. I have yet to see a YUDEN000T03 burnt on a 18A1P/20A1P at ANY speed with a JC% below 0.09. Nonetheless I still think YUDEN000T02 and T03 are great discs by all means, for home PC use, but for long term archival storage I would look elsewhere. And not to worry, other media too would get failing scores on a datarius scanning - media makers know that consumers/most people don’t have access to these tests, let alone bother with cdspeed/kprobe. The good news is that most dvd players today are RELAXED in terms of compliancy, so you should in theory have no problems with these discs despite a few critical signals on a datarius…the problem would be with older generation of players or picky ones.