Yo Belvedere ; regarding the topic "copying a copy"

Living Room
#1

You said: “Because you see , were this a server residing in the United States , the owner of this server was now obliged to tell the local authoroties about your statements.”

I disagree. Nowhere in the USA have I ever heard of a law requiring anyone to inform on anyone else. If the police ask you specifically if you know about someone breaking the law, it is illegal to lie to them. You can refuse to answer, but then they take you to court, then you must answer, truthfully. However, there are no laws requiring informing without first being asked, as that is like the Nazis or communist North Koreans. Very un-American. You are not obligated to inform without the police first asking. Maybe the law is different in Holland?

#2

This sounds like a reply to a different thread. Reply there or PM Mr. B instead. Dont start a new thread. :cop:

#3

it’s a reply to this… kinda funny that the guy woke up after 20 days :bigsmile:

#4

I’m replying to a CLOSED thread in another topic area. Belvedere said to post any further questions here. OK??

#5

Originally posted by Tremo
I’m replying to a CLOSED thread in another topic area. Belvedere said to post any further questions here. OK??

  1. A topic is generally closed for a reason
  2. Where did he say to start a new topic, can’t find it anywhere.

Since it is a reply to a closed thread, this one will be closed as well. If you don’t agree, PM me…

#6

Calm down people , i’ll try to tell what is going on.

It is all because of this topic in the Burning Software Section.

Further , it was in a reply to Mr/Mrs/Miss Usthaiguy not a referral to everything who wants to start a topic about it. I’m sure you can read that within the thread.

Then again , personally i’m in favour for open and free discussion as long as there’s no bashing , trashing , shouting and spamming involved , so feel free (from my side) to discuss it.

In the meantime , here’s a little fact sheet for australian isps. I’ll try to find a US one as well.

#7

@Da_taxman

[QUOTE]If you feel the need to discuss this further , pm me or open up a topic in the living room.[QUOTE]

he said it here; http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61207

#8

I can’t find it at the moment , but i’m pretty sure that in the case of a criminal offense you are obliged to tell the local authoroties about it , at least in the United States.

last time i looked copyright infringment was still a criminal offense.

then again , you always have “the right to remain silent” as stated in lotsa cop-movies :slight_smile:

#9

Yo Belvedere,

Thanks for the reply. If you can find such a FEDERAL law for the USA, where one is legally obligated to inform the authorities, please post it for my own knowledge.

Obligating someone to inform on someone else is very un-American and people would revolt over such a law. Witness what has recently happened as the ultra-right wing US government of Bush passed the “Patriot Act”. Numerous cities and communities are now passing laws in opposition to this very Nazi-like law.

Yes, copyright infringement is a criminal offense, but as far as I know, you are not required to snitch to the cops if you see someone doing it. At least not in the US. At least not until the MPAA and RIAA pay the government to pass such a law.

And the “right to remain silent” is a constitutional right, where you are not required to testify against yourself.

And thanks for re-opening this thread. Your associate is a little too quick with the switch.

#10

Originally posted by Tremo
Your associate is a little too quick with the switch.

Hmm, I think Tax is a bit more than an “associate” :slight_smile: Management is more like it…

As for this issue, I never heard of such a law either. The only time something similar can be applied is when you have info on a crime that the authorities are already investigating. Then you can be seen as impeding the investigation. But you have no obligation other than moral to report a crime.

#11

while in the US, you may not have a federal law, the likelyhood that you will be held accountable for punitive damages in civil court is very high. happen to hear about the navy computers getting confiscated for mp3 downloading? or the million dollar payout for having mp3’s on a company webserver? all isp’s are going the ‘better safe than sorry’ route, and now that the fbi/cia (one of them) is pushing to have monitoring software built into ALL isp backbones…can you really say that its alright to discuss illegal activities?

and finally, they dont have to have a search warrant to search your home anymore. they dont have to have a warrant to tap your fones. welcome to 1984.

#12

Originally posted by FlyingDutchman
[B]

As for this issue, I never heard of such a law either. The only time something similar can be applied is when you have info on a crime that the authorities are already investigating. Then you can be seen as impeding the investigation. But you have no obligation other than moral to report a crime. [/B]

FD - It’s called obstruction of justice, if the cops call you in to question you about someone else, and you lie or refuse to answer. However, you are not obligated to come forth on your own with the info. Unless they come to you and ask you for info, you can’t be prosecuted for not volunteering it. Moral obligation only, as you observed. Obviously, if you witnessed a murder, you probably would volunteer the info. On the other hand, if you witnessed someone copying a computer game or a music CD to give to his friend, who gives a rat’s ass. No blood was spilled.

#13

Originally posted by ckin2001
[B]while in the US, you may not have a federal law, the likelyhood that you will be held accountable for punitive damages in civil court is very high. happen to hear about the navy computers getting confiscated for mp3 downloading? or the million dollar payout for having mp3’s on a company webserver? all isp’s are going the ‘better safe than sorry’ route, and now that the fbi/cia (one of them) is pushing to have monitoring software built into ALL isp backbones…can you really say that its alright to discuss illegal activities?

and finally, they dont have to have a search warrant to search your home anymore. they dont have to have a warrant to tap your fones. welcome to 1984. [/B]

Not a chance being held liable for damages in a civil suit for failing to volunteer to report that someone else is making copys of CDs. As long as you are not materially involved with the crime, you cannot be held responsible.

Navy computers were confiscated because the cadets broke the honor code. Military academy honor codes do not apply to the civilian population.

As you observed, someone actually stored the MP3s on a company’s server. That’s WAY different than simply discussing copying. Apples and oranges. In the case of a copy discussion, nothing belonging to someone else is stored on the Forum’s server. So no infringement took place on the Forum.

And you are wrong, a warrant is still required to search a home. Else, it is a police state like Nazi Germany or North Korea, and there would be a revolution. Bush and Ashcroft have not succeded in revoking the Bill of Rights. Yet.

#14

Not a chance being held liable for damages in a civil suit for failing to volunteer to report that someone else is making copys of CDs. As long as you are not materially involved with the crime, you cannot be held responsible.

umm if you know of a crime that has been committed “YOU ARE AN ACCESSORY TO THE FACT”

And you are wrong, a warrant is still required to search a home. Else, it is a police state like Nazi Germany or North Korea, and there would be a revolution. Bush and Ashcroft have not succeded in revoking the Bill of Rights. Yet.

A warrant is not required because of “REASONABLE SUSPICION”.

Ialso think you should stop bashing other countries GERMANY IS NOT “NAZI GERMANY” IT IS GERMANY.North korea may be a police state but why do you care you don’t live there, if they choose to live like that so be it, It is none of your or any one else’s business.

As for the un-american comment we are not american so dont tell us were un-american OK!

#15

Originally posted by slayerking
[B]

umm if you know of a crime that has been committed “YOU ARE AN ACCESSORY TO THE FACT”

A warrant is not required because of “REASONABLE SUSPICION”.

Ialso think you should stop bashing other countries GERMANY IS NOT “NAZI GERMANY” IT IS GERMANY.North korea may be a police state but why do you care you don’t live there, if they choose to live like that so be it, It is none of your or any one else’s business.

As for the un-american comment we are not american so dont tell us were un-american OK! [/B]

We’re talking about USA law in this thread, not OZ law. My initial post was to Belvedere about what he thought was a US law.

In the US, You are not considered an accessory to the crime unless you materially participate in some manner. In the commission of the crime, planning the crime, or actively helping the criminals in some way. Knowledge of a crime does not make you an actionable accessory if simple knowledge of it is all you have, at least not in the US. Oz laws may differ.

I am not bashing Germany, hell, I like the place and the people, and the food. Munchen is one of my favorite foreign cities. I’ve dated German girls. However, back in the early 40’s it was a different place. It was Nazi Germany back then, a police state, and that is what I was referring to. I thought it would be clear. I guess not?? North Korea sucks. They have a giant army while the civilians starve.

Reasonable suspicion may be enough to get your house searched in Oz, but in the US a warrant is still needed, and again, this thread was about US law, not OZ law. Or Dutch law.

Oh, one last thing. If you don’t like my posts, don’t read them.

#16

isn’t it every honest (???) citizens duty to report crime…i think it is in every country…or…it used to be

in public places like this…rules are always different then our private lifes…

#17

//moderator hat on//

I did not reopen this thread so you people go could bash each others heads in with insults and witty remarks.

Someone can take offense in your words , wether or not he or she should be reading them is not an issue here , when its read , the damage is done and many cannot ignore words.

Remember than the pen (in this time the keyboard) is mightier than the sword.

I have no trouble removing this entire thread if it comes to that and i have no trouble if another mod/admin or staff removes it

//moderator hat off//

So , where were we ?

We got honest citizen duty : i think that’s indeed the truth ; you’re kinda (not the word kinda !?) obliged to tell them

We got constitutional law , which says you have the right to remain silent

And we got federal law , which says no copyrighting but also no obligation to tell the cops about a crime.

Have i got it summed up all right ?

#18

i think you have mentioned it all…

except the forum rules

#19

This thread was initially allowed to discuss the fact whether or not it is mandatory under US law to report violations to the appropriate authorities.

It appears that every time a certain aspect of the US is discussed, the thread deteriorates to bashing cultures or opinions, rather than facts. We have a strict policy when it comes to political discussions and I intend to uphold that policy very strictly.

As for the topic, I am no expert on criminal law, especially not that of the US. But I think we have a moral responsibility to take actions to violations of any law we see. In the case we see a violation and we do not take action to it, even more so after we have been pointed to it, we can be held accountable for this violation.

We have rules on this forum for a reason. The most important reason is to keep this forum up and running for all to enjoy. Being in the field of expertise that we are, we are very close to the border of illegality, so it is evident we have to carefully watch out not to break any laws and the rules that apply to this forum. You may call this hypocrisy, i don’t care. If I feel there are rules that are broken, I will take whatever action I feel is necessary.

I am not asking anyone to like me or what I do on (and for) this forum, but I do expect you to respect our rules and policy that apply to this forum, so we can all benefit from the knowledge gathered on this forum and learn from each other, because that is what this forum is all about, what CD Freaks is all about!

Originally posted by FlyingDutchman
Hmm, I think Tax is a bit more than an “associate” :slight_smile: Management is more like it…

Nah, not management, that is Domin8tor and MP|3…but calling me an associate is even further from the truth :wink:

#20

Points well taken. It was not my intention to bash anyone. I was simply trying to discuss with Belvedere his interpretation of US law. Nothing more.

I think we reached a sort of consensus. Yes, you may have moral obligation to report a crime you witness. The strength of that moral obligation is likely to be the relative seriousness of the crime. Obviously for murder, kidnapping, armed robbery, etc, the obligation would be very strong. For other “lesser” crimes like minor cheating on taxes, copying a CD or DVD, speeding on the highway, the “obligation” may be weaker, depending on the individual. I can’t speak for other countries, but in all these cases though, in the US, there is no law that requires you to report, for the civilian population. There may be different rules that apply to military personnel, policemen, and other public servants. In other countries, I have no idea, and I will accept the word of their citizens as to how their laws apply.

If Dutch law requires you to report any illegal activity that you see here on this forum, I assure you that it will not be me who discusses such things. This forum is a great resource for knowledge on how to make personal backup copies of disks I already legally own, and I don’t want anything to happen here.

With all that said, I guess that ends the discussion, unless Belvedere can find such a US law as he has mentioned, in which case I will be greatly surprised. Belv, please PM me if you do find something. Thanks.