YAMAHA CRW-8424E - Writes data but no audio!

For several days now, when I try to burn an audio-compilation on my Yamaha CRW8424E ATAPI recorder, the procedure stops with the error: “Track following error” and the cd is damaged. This happens with all writing speeds (4x, 2x, 1x - no buffer underrun problem), with many brands of blank media (SONY, Maxell etc.), also on CD-Rs and on CD-RWs, and with compilations from mp3 files but also from ready-edited wav files (no need for mp3 decoding during the recording). Most people and info I could get from the internet, speak for “the CD-R device is damaged”! But please notice: I can still record data. Moreover, with the “Verify written data” option enabled, I get no error message. My data are written correctly and verified. But no audio-cd recording possible. Any idea? Any suggestion?
I use my drive for 3.5 years. I have latest firmware installed (it is not a firmware related problem)
I use nero 5.5 burning rom software.
IS MY DRIVE DAMAGED? OR IS IT “DATA-ONLY” :slight_smile: :frowning:

Thanks a lot for any help!

Did your drive write audio discs correctly before?

Did you change anything (hardware, software, firmware, BIOS, etc.) about your computer recently?

Have you switched brands of blank discs recently?

You might also want to try another burning program as a test. I thing you could download a trial version of NTI CD-MAKER at the NTI web site.

==Did your drive write audio discs correctly before?==
YES, it worked perfectly for 3.5 years! Until a week ago!

==Did you change anything (hardware, software, firmware, BIOS, etc.) about your computer recently?==
NO, I changed nothing! It started burning one cd ok - one cd error, then one cd ok - three cds wrong, and now… "all wrongly with this error! Firmware i flashed the latest, only after i had the problem for a week! But this firmware did nothing, moreover it was only a version numbering correcting firmware, nothing else!

=Have you switched brands of blank discs recently?=
I always use many different brands, all with no problems. For the last weeks (with the problems) i tried (and destroyed) only “good expensive” Maxell and Sony cds (not cheap no-name stuff!)

=You might also want to try another burning program as a test. I thing you could download a trial version of NTI CD-MAKER at the NTI web site.=
I’d rather not to change the nero: It is so good and efective, stable and secure, and works for so long. Moreover, i risk to “lose” my whole system when removing my cd-r software and installing another (it happened several times to me, with both the pc at home, and the pc at the office - changing from Easy CD creating to Nero (remove/install) caused my pc to crash and had to format it allover from the start again!)

Your drive is probably dying.
But if you don’t want to change anything there’s no way to see what happens.
If Nero with your drive doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. We can’t make no miracle.

Originally posted by pasalimanius
I’d rather not to change the nero: It is so good and efective, stable and secure, and works for so long.

Feurio is all that multiplied by 3.
In fact, the burning engine in Nero5.x is copied from Feurio!

Moreover, i risk to “lose” my whole system when removing my cd-r software and installing another (it happened several times to me, with both the pc at home, and the pc at the office - changing from Easy CD creating to Nero (remove/install) caused my pc to crash and had to format it allover from the start again!)

You don’t have to uninstall a burning program to install another program, at least if you use good programs.
Only bad programs can cause what you say.
Feurio can’t disturb other programs and has perfect support for your drive:
http://www.feurio.com/English/faq/faq_otherburnprg.shtml
http://www.feurio.com/English/faq/faq_vocable_aspi.shtml

If you don’t try your burner in another computer, or at least try another burning program, there’s no way to diagnose.

I just got an answer to my inquiry from Ahead (maker of nero).
They say (except from trying different brands blank media etc.) that there might be:

  1. Either bad power supply (cable, low voltage etc.) - That is not! my pc runs perfectly for years and with any devices ever attached and all external usb etc… (good power supply unit!).
    … or …
  2. My optical pickup system is either dirty or disaligned and I need to bring it to service shop for cleaning and/or alignment!!!

Hellas! To give it only for inspection will cost more than buying a brand new cd-recorder!!!

Good buy my beloved Yamaha! Good bye!
Dead in action! Died on Duty !


I have crashed my pc (at home and at office as well) three times, only for changing from Easy CD creator to nero ! (both world top products). CD-R softwares “speak” so deeply to the system that cause it to crash very often when removing!
Installing without removing is not recomended by any manufacturer (when it comes for different programs) - only for installing new version over the older!

Thanks folks for all entries and help!

dear minix
i took your links under consideration.
Here (in Europe at least) nero is far better and more popular than any other. Some 2 years ago was equal with Easy CD.
But today it got far better.
Feurio i have heard is a good software, but why should i risk to change to it?
Your link was not for my model (8424, not 8824) but i’ve found the html for my model.
So what? Should i try Feurio? It seems my drive is dead already!
I keep it in my mind though (maybe i’ll try when i’ll have to format a new pc someday).
Thanks a lot anyway

Originally posted by pasalimanius
Here (in Europe at least) nero is far better and more popular than any other.

well, Nero is much more popular.
why? because it writes data, VCD, etc. a lot more formats than Feurio, which is a specialized audio burning program and is far better than Nero.
I’ve been using both programs for more than 4 years, and I found Feurio because Nero wasn’t reliable with my 1MB-buffer drive.

That was Nero4, and it became famous because of its overburning capabilities, something that EasyCD couldn’t do. CDRWin could also overburn but its interface was difficult, and its burning engine was outdated when Ahead got the help from the programmer of Feurio to build a reliable burning engine and released Nero 5.0.
All that and the really unreliable nature of EasyCD, made Nero became what is now.

Nero5.0 was small and reliable, but Nero6 isn’t reliable anymore (and Nero 5.5 had a too many bugs).

It seems my drive is dead already!

That’s true. I would try it in another computer or at least with another burning software to make sure.
By the way, Feurio would have had diagnosed the same problem as Ahead, not that ambiguous small “Track following error”…

As I said before, it’s impossible that Feurio causes problems in your system. It’s not as integrated in the system as EasyCD, in fact you can run Feurio without installing it, just by copying the folder from another system into yours.

CDRWin is also clean, unless you install its ASPI drivers.
Same for EAC.

Only bad programs need to install stupid drivers. At least, Nero has removed that NeroCd95.vxd driver in the latest versions.

Yes, minix, my friend! You are so right about all these you say for EasyCD and nero. Both spoke to the system too much, that’s why i had problems in the past when uninstalling easycd etc.
And yes, nero has become much better since, and reliable. (why are you saying nero 6 isn’t good? it’s seems the best and more compete suite ever! isn’t it?).

Anyway… I have latest news…

I have read all info in Feurio site, and I saw that it does NOT install any drivers itself, and only uses all the systems components already installed. It does NOT interfear with any other cd-writing program, and no program is intefeered from it. It can perfectly co-exist with any other program. So I downloaded it and decided to give it a chance. I tried it. No problem with the installation. I didn’t tried nero after it, but I don’t think I’ll have any problem.

Well, Feurio! it’s just wonderful! It’s so small in size, so powerfull, so well made, so comprehensive, so informative and so direct and exact. It is so well designed. I feel pity that I didn’t use it for so many years.

Easy CD Creator was the most popular, almost the world standard for years, then nero took leadership. They are really good programs. But, EasyCD is very easy to use (friendly interface), nero is more powerfull, more professional and still friendly, and both have many secondary applications intergrated (audio editor, cover designer etc.). Nero is world’s #1 selling and most popular. So, what could Feurio offer more?

I was surprised. It is all you can ask and much more. You do what you want to do, and even if you don’t know exactly how, there is always this easy-to-understand explanations (a help tip at every move) and so direct. It gows so deep in the heart of the data and the media itself, that you couldn’t imagine. You do something wrong and you have the explanation why at once, and the tip how to do it right. It is not so illustrating and so shiny when it comes to GUI. Nero is much more glamour in terms of graphics and colours etc (especially in its late version). Feurio is simple. A basic windows interface and nothing more! But with meaning, and effective, and deep, and sofisticated. There are a few spelling or grammatical errors (but the guy who wrote it is German) and who cares anyway, as you can do things simply, easy and effectively? And it has also an intergrated Wave Editor (simple, but still it’s there). And a Cover designer too.

As I am going to purchase a DVD-R soon, I’ll have to use another recording package (nero 6 probably), as Feurio burns CDs only. But if I had to use only my CD-R, I’d use Feurio only, and nothing else!

It’s a wonderful small and strong professional tool! Congratulations.

So, I performed my drives tests etc., I compiled a cd, I performed image writing, and at last I burned a CD-RW (with a few songs only). It burned it perfectly. Then I tried a cd-copy. It performed the simulation successfully, but when it started burning it gave me the same error (as I get with nero for days now): “Track following error”!!! Again.

And the explanation was more or less the same: The laser is wickened, or the pickup head (with the laser on itself) needs re-alignment. (It’s not much more than ahead said, but the difference is that Feurio says all these on spot, with an explaning message, though ahead says only “TRACK FOLLOWING ERROR” with no more info - they had to write me a mail with the explanation after i wrote to them!!! That’s a big difference!)

It is obvious now (after another software adviced the same) that my drive needs service or it is damaged. The cost is inaffordable, and this means: Goodbye Yamaha, Welcome DVD-R !

Thanks a lot, you were so right recomending Feurio to me!

Well, Feurio! it’s just wonderful! It’s so small in size, so powerfull, so well made, so comprehensive, so informative and so direct and exact. It is so well designed.

at last someone that understands me… :stuck_out_tongue:
I’m surprised because Feurio is difficult the first times. You made a very good description…

why are you saying nero 6 isn’t good? it’s seems the best and more compete suite ever! isn’t it?

Yes, in theory.
But it has too many bugs, and it takes too many resources I’d say (Nero5.5 is usually faster in slow machines).
You can read it in the “Recording software” forum (or the Ahead forum at CDRLabs).

The problem is that Ahead ruins good working code too many times, I don’t know why (probably too many people coding).
For instance, when they released Nero 5.0, the new burning engine was working perfectly fine. Some versions later, it stopped working as it should. I explain it in this post:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?showtopic=8105&st=25&&#entry81302
The same with the bug that deleted the last sector of all audio tracks during several months. Nero was working well, and suddenly that error (difficult to detect)… And there are more (with cuesheets, saving audio compilations).

Anyway, Nero has some features that Feurio lacks, like WMA support (and the 3rd party plugins for a lot of formats), RMS normalization, a complete audio editor, etc. But the features in Feurio always work fast and fine. Very few bugs. The support for tested drives is the best.

EasyCD is very easy to use (friendly interface)

I agree. I like its interface. I find it clearly better than Nero’s. But I don’t like to install that program… I have fear. :bigsmile:

  1. why are you saying this? You’ve recomended Feurio elsewhere too? And they tried and didn’t find it good? Am i the first one to say it’s so good ???
  2. I don’t know about recording engine (good or bad). I was using Easy (but it was so poor, very little thing to be involved into, isn’t it?) and then as all the people talked for nero, we bought nero in office. I installed there. Yes, it was so better, unfriendly at the beginning, but then, you were used to. It was 5.5 (didn’t try older version). And it was fine! And so I installed it at home too! Yes, i have a very old slow machine (Pentium MMX 166GHz only!). But it runs perfect! And had so much more detail (in depth) in comparison with Easy CD (the last one shows you nothing - you don’t know what exactly it is doing and where and how - it seems it’s ideal only for beginners). But now with Feurio i saw it is much more detailed and goes far deeper - and you see exactly where and how - it reffers even for CD-surface emultions!!! Never seen it before!!! Why were you surprised to see me finding it understandable? I know a few (just few-not so much as you) things for cd’s! And it’s all there, in Feurio! Also things we don’t know, they are there and being explained! Super!
  3. Are you an audio engineer of software programmer or something?

…and something more…

I don’t know of the bugs you say! What do you mean “losing the last track” ? You record a compilation of e.g. 19 songs and some month later you realize you have only 18 tracks on your cd ??? I didn’t understand this! Where can I read about this bug ?

Nero, yes, it has plenty of goodies (i told this from the very start). It’s self understanding it should have them. It’s a suit, a “big” program and expensive too. It must have it. It also has intergrated support for AAC (mpeg4 audio) ehhh??? and of course we didn’t mention that is a multi format recorder (DVD, other CD formats, Extra-Cd, Photo etc.).

But still Feurio is a CD-ONLY recording software, eh? And still has Audio editor etc… they are simple but still they exist!

It’s perfect! Should they produce a Feurio-DVD-rec version??? I’m quite interested. If I had Feurio and “Feurio-DVD-Authoring” (with the same programming quality as Feurio), then why should I need nero for my new DVD-R ???

…sorry, i didn’t read it correct in the first time…

Losing last sector after some months ??? What does it sound like? The song stops “cut” suddenly at the end, after some time ? How? It is written data! And it’s there!!!

Does it also happen with data-cd ? This means you could at an instance lose valuable date you have backed up on a cd-r ?
Good God !!!

  1. why are you saying this? You’ve recomended Feurio elsewhere too? And they tried and didn’t find it good? Am i the first one to say it’s so good ???

well, had you heard about Feurio before?
Its popularity level is really low relatively to its quality. The main reason is that it never burned data discs, and people like all-in-one solutions, and burning audio discs aren’t very used at a professional level.

Why were you surprised to see me finding it understandable? I know a few (just few-not so much as you) things for cd’s!

yes, but I also know many people that know a lot of things about CDs that don’t like or adapt to Feurio…
A lot of people appreciate its qualities, but also a lot of people don’t find it any better than Nero (or don’t need any more than that).

  1. Are you an audio engineer of software programmer or something?

No. My programming skills are quite basic… I’ve never written a serious program for a windows interface.

Easy CD (the last one shows you nothing - you don’t know what exactly it is doing and where and how - it seems it’s ideal only for beginners).

It’s ideal for beginners that do not want to learn.
Feurio is ideal for beginners that want to learn.

Should they produce a Feurio-DVD-rec version??? I’m quite interested. If I had Feurio and “Feurio-DVD-Authoring” (with the same programming quality as Feurio), then why should I need nero for my new DVD-R ???

Feurio is a specialized audio software and the only chance is that MP3 discs become so popular that the program needs a data module to burn this kind of discs. For DVD, the only option would be DVD-Audio, but I think that you have to pay a huge amount of money to include that option in a burning program.
The problem is that the new anticopy law in Germany is stopping the release of Feurio 2.0, that includes a lot of little new interesting details for audio burning.

Losing last sector after some months ??? What does it sound like? The song stops “cut” suddenly at the end, after some time ? How? It is written data! And it’s there!!!

:slight_smile:
No, I mean that the bug remained for a lot of months… hehe
From version 5.5.0.0 to 5.5.7.8, the last sector of audio tracks is missing. (Not with CD-Copy option).
This is not an important issue for a domestic ussage, mainly because most tracks end in silence longer than 1 second…
The problem is that they are not able to separate good working code from the changes made in other parts of code, so you can’t trust that the code is improved with every version.
That is called “coupling” (I think that’s the word in English) in software engineering, and it’s no good :stuck_out_tongue:

And then you find that the bug is not reflected in the change log/version history…

Hi Minix
You are very good in computers, and still if you write programs, it’s quite a lot. I don’t know how to write even one line!!!(hehe).

Yes, all you say for Feurio and your remarks for the market and the people’s customs are quite correct!
With Feurio you learn if you don’t know, and you learn more if you know little. I’ve seen so many details-in-depth i didn’t know even existed!

Which country do you come from? (I am from Greece).

The fact that Feurio doesn’t burn data discs is not serious! Data is simply to write. And it’s just written or not! It’s not so complicated as audio. And in audio the way it reads and writes is very important! You just hear it! In data, all in all is the data to be copied exactly the same!

To make a DVD-Audio version of Feurio would be interesting, but still it’s too early. DVD-A is young still and not many people knows/uses it. And it would be difficult to write such a program! Isn’t it? More complicated, since the DVD-Audio format is so much more advanced anyway! Isn’t it?

Yes, I knew Feurio (heard of it) from a magazine for computers, who made a special issue for CD-R recording years ago, and of course i used to see the name in various sites over internet (download sites, software sites etc.)

At last, the question: I still dont understand what happens to the last sector of audio tracks! Even if a pause of 2 secs is usually recorded (I DO NOT USE PAUSES - I write my tracks with 0 secs gap) it is still a problem… for example in live concerts where no silence exists in between tracks, what would happen? It would lose data? Music would be lost after some months??? This i don’t understand! IF it is written, it’s there! Then it is played back from the CDplayer or not! But if played, it should be played in total? How only the last (little) part is lost ??? And then, maybe you speak for extra small amount of data ? milliseconds maybe? But even so, it’s a serious problem, and remains a mystery to me!

Waiting to hear from you, bye !

How much is the size of a sector anyway? 2000 - 3000 bytes?
What is this to seconds of music? I suppose 30-50msecs ?
It’s very little, but still very serious!!!
Or maybe you mean “some sectors”. Some times one sector, some times many sectors? That this even could result in many seconds of music lost?

No, no.
Data is not lost with time (that’s impossible).
The discs were burned incorrectly with those versions. Instead of burning the whole track, Nero “forgot” to burn the last bytes (1 sector).

1 sector = 588 samples * 4bytes = 2352 bytes = 13 miliseconds

in live concerts where no silence exists in between tracks, what would happen? It would lose data?

It depends.
All tracks in a CD-DA disc, must have a integer number of sectors.
I mean, you can’t burn a track with 8914.65 sectors: you must burn 8914 or 8915 sectors.

Of course, when you rip a CD, you’ll have a WAV that fits perfect in a CD-DA track if you want to burn it again, so there’s no problem with gaps.
If you delete or add some samples in that WAV, and the WAV is not a multiple of a CD-DA sector (588 samples) anymore, then the software must do something to write that in a CD track.

Most programs fill the last sector with silence. Nero deletes the last sector always even with new versions. Feurio fills the sector with music from the following track (continuous playing).

Example:
You have a WAV with 8000 samples.
That’s 13.6 sectors.

EasyCD Creator will burn a track with 14 sectors (8232 samples). The last 232 samples will be silence (creating a very small pause)

Nero will burn a track with 13 sectors (7644 samples). The last 356 samples of the WAV will be deleted. This way no silence is added but you’ll lose part of your music !!

Feurio will burn a track with 14 sectors. The last 232 samples of this track will be the first 232 samples of the following WAV file. This way you have continuous playing without losing music.

Anyway, this only applies to tracks that aren’t multiple of 588 samples. When you create WAVs from CD, this is not an issue (unless you configure something like “Remove silence from the start/end of track” in your ripping program) because all tracks in CD must be multiple of a sector.

The problem was that in old Nero versions, the last sector was deleted ALWAYS!! even if the tracks were multiple of 588 samples. A stupid programming error that Ahead didn’t fix in a lot of months (that’s what I meant :stuck_out_tongue: ).

Now i see what you mean! I thought data was fading away with the passing of time (originally) due to error of burning the emulsion! Stupid of me!

Now, i understood. My remarks:

  1. If it’s only milliseconds, you can’t here it anyway. I DO use remove silence, and i don’t use pauses between tracks in my recordings, but still there is always a fade out at the end of my tracks (the original or made by me) and in any case there is silence (even very small) at the end of each track - but still enough to afford to lose some milliseconds. So it’s not a problem to me.
  2. only case it would be a problem is in the case of the live albums where music continues from track to track (and some times i have them ripped in wavs and back burned to cd). Then, i must lose some data (milliseconds of music). But i have never noticed that. But i started using nero 5.5.0 for very few days and upgraded to 5.5.10 at once! That’s why this never happened and i didn’t notice!!! Isn’t so? (but still, stupid, from nero’s side - other programs do better - it’s better longer silence than loss of music!!!)
  3. Does it also happen in 1 to 1 CD-copy ??? I think not! Isn’t it? It applies only when ripping into wavs and burning back from wavs to cd ! Isn’t so?
  4. How does this error efected in data-discs? Or Data is not written with this rule of sector size? ???

And… last questions:

  • you forgot to tell me which country you come from.
  • what’s your opinion for Plextor PX-708A (besides what you read in here - your own opinion - you see, i trust your knowledge and way of looking things, i’d like to hear your view!)
  • Which program would be the “Feurio for DVD” ??? Small, in-depth, serious, accurate etc? I hear for DVD2one. There is a great variety of these programs. I’d like to go straight to a tested, effective, serious DVDcopying program. Do you know it? Do you have a “Special like Feurio” program for DVD copying to suggest? I’d like your opinion for this matter too!

Thanks a lot for all your answers in advance!

Originally posted by pasalimanius
I DO use remove silence

The “Remove silence at the end of *.cda tracks” option in Nero?

It doesn’t work.
I mean, I have done several tests with different WAV sizes and the resulting disc is the same with that option enabled or disabled.

Try to search that option in the help: it doesn’t exist.
Amazing :Z

[B]

But i started using nero 5.5.0 for very few days and upgraded to 5.5.10 at once! That’s why this never happened and i didn’t notice!!! Isn’t so? [/B]

Yes, only versions between 5.5.0.0 and 5.5.7.8 are affected.

I don’t think this happens in 1:1 CD Copy. I haven’t tested it, because probably there’s no problem using that option.

Data discs are not affected.
I don’t know how data is burned in a CD, but there’s only one track for every session.

I don’t have any opinion about DVD burners or programs.
I don’t care about DVD burning. I only want my burner to make audio discs and 700MB are enough for me to burn data. I don’t even hava a DVD-ROM.
There are a lot of threads about this Plextor drive in this forum. I think that it’s not made by Plextor, and maybe it has problems with media (if it’s the NEC drive, which I don’t know).

Originally posted by minix
[B]The “Remove silence at the end of *.cda tracks” option in Nero?

It doesn’t work.
I mean, I have done several tests with different WAV sizes and the resulting disc is the same with that option enabled or disabled.[/B]

I always thought that option removed silence of CD-Audio tracks that Nero extracted, not at the end of WAV files burned to an audio CD. Is this assumption incorrect?

I had the same doubt.
But when I found that the “Save Tracks” module had the same option (a bit hidden), I thought that it would be stupid to duplicate the same feature.
What would happen if you select that option there, but not in the extraction dialog?

So I “decided” that this option must be for burning (it doesn’t work anyway). I haven’t tested that, so maybe I’m wrong. If this is the case, then it would be stupid non-documented interface by Ahead…

It also says “CDA” tracks, not WAV tracks… :confused: