Why is VC-1 still being used for Blu Ray compression over H.264?

I’ve just been backing up some of my stuff lately and I’m just wondering why VC-1 is still used over H.264 for Blu Ray compression on commercial Blu Ray discs.

Could someone tell me the reason for this? It seems like H.264 produces just as high of quality, but in a smaller file size.

Blu ray video can be made using any one of three video codecs, VC-1, H264 and Mpeg2. VC-1 is similar to H264 in many ways, but as you’ve noticed, doesn’t have the same compression qualities.

The decision regarding which codec to use rests with the studios. The movie might fit onto the disc with no issues, even with a lot of extras, and so which one to use might not hinge on file size. I would think licensing fees would be part of the decision.

[QUOTE=Kerry56;2673998]Blu ray video can be made using any one of three video codecs, VC-1, H264 and Mpeg2. VC-1 is similar to H264 in many ways, but as you’ve noticed, doesn’t have the same compression qualities.

The decision regarding which codec to use rests with the studios. The movie might fit onto the disc with no issues, even with a lot of extras, and so which one to use might not hinge on file size. I would think licensing fees would be part of the decision.[/QUOTE]

I have a couple more questions, but they’re related to backup software so I’m going to go post them over there.

I saw your post in the DVDFab forum. Since I can’t ask in there about MakeMKV, what issues are you having working with VC-1 in MakeMKV? I just did a test with MakeMKV on a movie encoded with VC-1 and had no problems whatsoever.

[QUOTE=Kerry56;2674008]I saw your post in the DVDFab forum. Since I can’t ask in there about MakeMKV, what issues are you having working with VC-1 in MakeMKV? I just did a test with MakeMKV on a movie encoded with VC-1 and had no problems whatsoever.[/QUOTE]

Well what I’m doing is I’m creating a DVD9 1080 backup using DVDFab. When the backup is finished, I open MakeMKV and select the “index.bdmv” file which is in the folder that DVDFab creates. On H.264 encoded stuff, it opens in MakeMKV and creates an .mkv file out of it. I did it originally so that I could extract the DTS 5.1 audio from the DTS-HD track. I noticed that this also reduce the file size from ~7.8GB down to ~5GB.

I tried to do it with some other DVD9 1080 backups created with DVDFab, but I cannot get MakeMKV to open some. I noticed that the ones MakeMKV will not open are specifically VC-1 encoded on the Blu Ray disc.

It’s really not that big of a deal, but I figured if I could reduce the file size, yet keep the quality, why not?

Perhaps I should just back up my stuff uncompressed. I have 30 Blu Ray movies to back up, and I have 1TB of HDD space. I see on Amazon they have 3TB Seagate HDD’s for $140.

Have you examined the DVD9 1080p backups made by DVDFab using MediaInfo? I’m quite certain that it is now in H264 video codec.

DVDFab will not compress using VC-1. They use their own version of an H264 encoder, which is generally quite inferior to X264 by the way. So Fab is screwing up the structure in such a way that MakeMKV cannot process it properly.

[QUOTE=Kerry56;2674066]Have you examined the DVD9 1080p backups made by DVDFab using MediaInfo? I’m quite certain that it is now in H264 video codec.[/QUOTE]

I have not. Could you go into more detail on that?

MediaInfo is a program designed to show the codecs used within media files.

You can find it here: http://mediainfo.sourceforge.net/en
It is one of those rare, good programs that unfortunately also has “add-ons” that can be selected when installing. Opt out of any such additional installs.

[QUOTE=Kerry56;2674083]MediaInfo is a program designed to show the codecs used within media files.

You can find it here: http://mediainfo.sourceforge.net/en
It is one of those rare, good programs that unfortunately also has “add-ons” that can be selected when installing. Opt out of any such additional installs.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I’ll check it out and report back on my findings.

EDIT: I attached a screenshot of MediaInfo’s output. Says it’s in AVC format, I see nothing about VC-1. Not sure why MakeMKV doesn’t want to open it up.

When I open MakeMKV, I’m clicking File, and selecting “index.bdmv” from the folder DVDFab creates. On some of my other titles, this opens the video in MakeMKV and crunches the file size down a little bit. I’m not sure why it doesn’t work for the others.




AVC is H264.

You can look at the m2ts file inside the Stream folder with MediaInfo to get better information. And the Tree view within MediaInfo is the one I normally use.

If you are just removing certain parts, you can also use ClownBD for this instead of MakeMKV. But it will output as an m2ts file or as a full fledged blu ray video, depending on what you want. ClownBD doesn’t have an option for mkv file output.

[QUOTE=Kerry56;2674087]AVC is H264.

You can look at the m2ts file inside the Stream folder with MediaInfo to get better information. And the Tree view within MediaInfo is the one I normally use.

If you are just removing certain parts, you can also use ClownBD for this instead of MakeMKV. But it will output as an m2ts file or as a full fledged blu ray video, depending on what you want. ClownBD doesn’t have an option for mkv file output.[/QUOTE]

I’m just wondering, but how come some of these files I can run through MakeMKV and end up with ~5GB file instead of a ~7.5GB file? I mainly did it at first to extract the DTS 5.1 audio out of DTS-HD tracks, but some will open in it and others will not.

I mean if my folder is turning into H.264 when I do a rip, shouldn’t MakeMKV be able to open it?

Is there a better program to use than DVDFab for doing BR rips?

When you make a DVD9 sized file using DVDFab, you are not only ripping the material from the disc to the hard drive (the real meaning of rip), but you are also compressing it if the original is in H264. If the original is VC-1 you are compressing and converting at the same time.

So you are manipulating the original material quite a lot. DVDFab’s conversion section has a poor reputation for quality output. Their encoder is set up for speed rather than quality, and there isn’t much adjustment available.

If you are “ripping/converting/compressing” and keeping the original audio, you are taking an enormous amount of the room available in a DVD9 size and using that for the audio alone. HD audio, whether it is DTS HD MA or True HD Dolby, both take several gigabytes of room, and you only have a target size of 7.9gb or so in a DVD9. Therefore, the quality of the video is far less than what it could be.

Now, why MakeMKV doesn’t accept the converted video, I don’t know for certain. From the error listed in your log, I’d say the file wasn’t muxed properly. You have to separate all the streams, audio, video and subtitles, then work with them. To rebuild the blu ray structure, you have to blend them back together (mux them). And Fab isn’t doing this in a way that MakeMKV likes. I suspect that the output from Fab with these particular files isn’t anywhere near compliant to strict blu ray specifications.

[QUOTE=hogger129;2674089]

Is there a better program to use than DVDFab for doing BR rips?[/QUOTE]

My advice is to use DVDFab only as a decryption/ripping program. Don’t use their misnamed Blu ray “Ripper” section for anything.

The free section, called DVDFab HD Decrypter is the only part of their program that I recommend to anyone for any purpose. Use it to get the blu ray on the hard drive with no change in the quality. Doing it this way, it is just a straight transfer of the data, minus the encryption. If you happen to own the Blu ray Copy section, then you could use this instead, and it will be updated faster than the free section.

MakeMKV can also rip the entire blu ray structure to the hard drive. It has decryption capability. To get the whole movie on the hard drive, use the Backup mode. MakeMKV may not be updated as quickly as Fab though.

Once on the hard drive you can use any number of good programs to convert to mkv, or compress to smaller sized blu ray structure. Almost all of them use the X264 encoder.

To go to mkv or mp4, I’d suggest using VidCoder or Handbrake.

To go to a smaller sized blu ray structure, use BD Rebuilder. BD Rebuilder can also output to mkv or mp4, but it is a bit less straightforward in use.

All three of these programs are free to download and use.

I think DVDFab is the only usable program to re-encode 3D films from BD50 to BD25

[QUOTE=Liggy;2674118]I think DVDFab is the only usable program to re-encode 3D films from BD50 to BD25[/QUOTE]

That’s my understanding too.

Other software such as BD Rebuilder can compress 3D movies but only to 2D and can’t yet retain 3D.

So for compressing 3D films DVDFab currently seems to be the only option. :iagree:

[B]Wombler[/B]

There have been a lot of complaints about the process DVDFab uses for 3D compression. I still will not recommend it, especially after reading an explanation of how it works using the SBS (side by side) process. It is a kludge.

It may be the only available kludge, but it is not a great solution.

My advice for 3D blu ray is not to compress them. If you want a backup copy, go to a 50gb blu ray disc and make a full copy…assuming you want the full experience of the original 3D disc.

If you just want a small copy for a portable, then be content with the 2D version, because your portable won’t do 3D anyway.

As long as I cannot see any difference, I’m fine :slight_smile:

Don’t have a 3D-TV yet anyway

[QUOTE=Liggy;2674168]Don’t have a 3D-TV yet anyway[/QUOTE]

Neither do I and 50GB discs are prohibitively expensive here anyway.

[B]Wombler[/B]

These and these are still affordable if you really need 50GB discs. The only way to get BD-R DL a little cheaper here is ordering them from Japan (€30 for 10 Verbatim discs, cheaper if you buy more but then you risk having to pay taxes)

Can’t wait for H.265 to be come main stream.

:cool::cool: