Why DVD-R burn quality poor than DVD+R (an explination)

vbimport

#1

Just a few word just to say :

Stop utilize DVD-R with benq burner. You can see the thread name (philips/benq). For your memory at the begining there was a was between pioneer (support the dvd-r media) and philips (support the dvd+r media). So if benq sell drive to philips you can easily understand that these drive have a best support for dvd+r media.

I dont no if it’s a commercial volunty or a technical problem (no time to spend on dvd-r media), but i think it was the premiere choice.

For exemple three scan (Why ritek g04 are better than ritek g05 ???):

The first ritek g05 burn @ 8x
Second philips c16 burn @ 16x
Third ritek g04 burn @ 4x

The 3 burn with B7P9 firmware

This is just an explination, to stop the discussion “I cannot get good burn with my dvd-r media (if it’s not a crap media)”


#2

My experience is similar … as a manufacturer, BenQ/Philips will surely push “their own format” and ensure that +R enjoys best quality (this is something like fooling the customer IMO since companies like NEC or Plextor do ensure comparable results with -R and +R).

My BenQ 1620 partially produces horrible results with quality -R media (media that my Plextor 712A deals with perfectly at the same writing speeds) … regarding the 1620’s general ability of high-quality writing, I therefore assume that -R writing strategies are not a paramount object during firmware development and drive design for Philips/BenQ (as well as +R quality might not be a paramount object for the -R faction - Panasonic, Toshiba and Pioneer).

In my understanding, -R is obsolete for PC DVD writers anyway since we can set the Booktype to -ROM on any DVD+R we write (the BenQ has it enabled as a standard setting) … the often-claimed compatibility bonus of -R over +R isn’t more than a myth for me.

The customer is the one who is being fooled and confused … a manufacturer that sells a drive with +/- capabilities has to pay license fees to both DVD forums … these licensing fees are being added to the retail price of the product.

As a result (and having experienced strange behaviour with -R ever since), my -R to +R ratio is something like 1%/99% at this time.


#3

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
There’s no difference in burn quality between +R and -R with my 1620. . .now after it’s been upgraded.
Both formats now burn with excellent quality, and is no difference.

Of course I got a lot of quality issues while trying to upgrade the drive. OH! That was such a bother! The darned firmware was a worse battle than an NEC! I was so angry that there were no documented solutions. I thought I was back in the dark ages of the early models of (attempts at) 1x and 2x cd writers. Yuk! Finally, after eleven tries, the upgrade worked. Wow. Now, I really like and appreciate the drive. It hasn’t made a single coaster since the upgrade worked correctly.

So, if you’re having problems with DVD-R media:
Maybe a bad upgrade?
Possibly using unsupported or cheaply made media?
Incorrect or sub-optimal installation of software or hardware?


#4

Hello, i’ve the same drive as you (i wait my 712 from plextor support, a defective one). I have (since some days) the same point of view. Now i think i can pass to DVD+R media because we can set book type (not very easy on the first writers - 2000 or 2001) and because dw1620 had very poor dvd-r support. But i’m waiting for my 712a to see if i have good results with it (since i have buy it impossible to get good quality burn, so come back to plextor).

So i wait, my goals are not to write the fastest but to have the best quality.


#5

I agree with Daniel´s (that writes back) opinion. :iagree:

Sometime ago, I thought as well ´forget DVD-R with BenQ 1620 Pro´. But several people in this forum have really proven that this thought was TOTALLY wrong… :slight_smile:

For starters, I do not use DVD-R´s, I do not see the reason to use them. I can Bitset +R´s to DVD-ROM, they play on every stand-alone DVD player (I have tried quite a lot of them with success, anybody with a bad experience ?)

The 1620 DVD burner is a fantastic little drive, it absolutely fullfills my Burning needs. We can all try to prove the opposite, but i do not see how… :confused:

I do not like or dislike BenQ, NEC, Plextor, LiteOn or any other DVD±RW Manufacturer, this is just my honest Opinion.


#6

Upgraded to what ? B7T9 ?

No … using quality -R from Maxell (RITEKG04) and TDK (ScratchProof TTG01) that write perfect in my 712A … the BenQ will either refuse to read/recognize its own discs after burning them (RITEKG04) or will spit out the disc after some 50% (TTG01).

I must admit that I haven’t tried TYG01/02 or MCC01RG20 yet … but as I already stated … -R/-RW is obsolete for me anyway.

Come on … I wouldn’t get great +R burns with incorrect or sub-optimal system specs …


#7

:rolleyes:
The point is that -R is the origin format and +R is an adaption with to-death-hyped Bitsetting.


#8

Can someone please help?..I used a paperclip to open my cd tray. and now the tray doesnt do anything. I have restarted my pc several times in the hope i might get it to jump start. but no response. Is it a mechanical fault? I didnt use any force when i inserted the paprclip, just enough to open the tray…Thanks


#9

Well, AFAIK DVD+ is superior in technically terms (other method to ensure correct tracking, better linking of data areas after writing interruptions for whatever reason, multisession support and so on). With Booktype setting, the compatibility should not be less than that of DVD-R. Only the higher frequency of the “track wobble” or whatever one wants to call it, which is an advantage when writing, could possibly / theoretically lead to incompatibilities with early players. And for packet writing on RWs I just think Minus is no competition to Plus at all.

For me it is quite clear: When my cakebox of DVD-Rs is empty, I will only buy DVD+R - assuming they run in all the devices I want to use them in.

I dont want to flame anyone and not to start another “format war”, but as reading is reasonable compatible today and the Plus standard was written with the knowledge of the weaknesses of Minus, eager to find feasible solutions for them, if you do not have any device absolutely requiring Minus, it would be stupid not to use the advantages of Plus media.

After reading the introductiary article DVD+ vs DVD- I got into some more advanced technical literature and it appears to me that the conclusions of this article do stand the test.

I think I could be convinced to choose DVD-R, but the arguments better be good! If I look at those two “standards” which are only that because some companies stand behind them - IIRC none of them is “THE OFFICIAL STANDARD™” - and I have no preference of Philips over Sony or other way round or whatever, I think buying the technology which meets ones needs is what is rational.

Regards!


#10

Only because something is out earlier, it does not necessarily mean it is better, agree?
I think one could say it this way: DVD-Minus was the first approach to writing DVD media for Consumers. It was well engineered, but there were Pros and Cons. Another consortium (correct word? hmmm…) created another standard, whether to save license costs or to do better does not matter IMHO. So we have 2 standards to choose between, both are read quite well, one may be better than the other for different usages, and writers do both reasonable well.

The consumer should be happy about this and not waste his energy in pointless “my standard is longer than your standard” wars :wink:

Greetz!


#11

The point is that -R is the origin format and +R is an adaption with to-death-hyped Bitsetting.

yeah and rubbing to sticks together is the origin of cooking fire but I think I will stick with my to hyped LP gas grill.

:stuck_out_tongue:


#12

rofl


#13

My 1620 burns -R every bit as well as +R!

It also reads the Ritek G04s that I burnt on my LiteOn without issue.

Simply put, haven’t had a read problem, haven’t had a write problem, all discs are WELL within specs, -R and +R scans look almost identical most of the time (PI less than 10, PIF less than 6) . . . I couldn’t be happier and haven’t seen any of the -R issues I’ve seen others discuss.

My unit is a NU Tech from NewEgg with the most recent Pro firmware upgrade.

-Bob-


#14

I’m not too convinced of the title of this thread, but since I’m probablly the forums biggest -R proponent, I thought I’d drop in my 2 cents…

My BenQ burns -R as good (actually, better than) as my +R burns. I’ve only burned on 4 types of -R media (and only one +R) and I get EXCELLENT results from 3 and OKAY results from 1, but the 1 is extremely cheap and I’ve got 3 other burners that have trouble with it also. As for my 3 happy medias they are TYG02, CMC.MAG.AE1, and G04. The TYG02 is top quality, the CMC.MAG.AE1 is extremely cheap ($0.08 per disc, AR), and the Ritek is…well, Ritek.

I’m NOT going to say which format is better. For me, I require -R. Early on, my DVD players only played -R, not +R. Since this time, I’ve upgraded most of my settop players and they play +R too, now. I still have a DVD player in my vehicle that is not easy to replace and it will only play -R. For this reason alone, I burn all -R. Someday, when I replace that player, or sell my vehicle, I might get a unit that will also play +R. When that happens, I’ll have the freedom to record on whatever format is the best value for me in terms of $ and quality. :smiley:


#15

> The point is that -R is the origin format and +R is an
> adaption with to-death-hyped Bitsetting.

plonk


#16

----------edited-----
Can you please on your profile or signature put your hardware config it
can help to see difference between config. Thanks

Hello all. The problem was not “is -r are better or not than +r” but “why this poor support of -r media on benq drive”.

I’ve tested this -r media

ritek g04 -> very good support
ritek g05 (@4x and 8x) -> poor support
TTG02 (@4x) -> very poor support (unreadable on dvdplayer)
Verbatim 4x (MCC) -> poor support minus than g04

On the other hand i’ve tested the media delivered with the drive (benq - Philips c16 +r media). I’ve burn it @16 and the result was marvelous.

The goal of this thread was just to point that point.

P.S : i’ve tested three different version of firmware, with the same result (L9-P9-T9).

So i wait for the come back of my 712 and after i can make test between the two drive.

For example nec3500ag had no problem with ttg02 (better result than ritek g04).

For the problem that the media was not recognize, try a different software. I’ve this problem when i use ONES.


#17

I’ll say this. I have a lot of discs still burned on -R format. I used to be a big fan of the -R since it burned so well on my NEC ND2500A - not saying that +R didn’t burn equally well, it did. Now, however, all my set-top players definitely support both formats and my one even supports RW’s from BOTH formats equally well.

With this in mind I have almost completely switched to +R format. It cost about the same, burns about the same when burning on quality media, and has the DVD-ROM booktype which I enjoy for compatibility purposes. I’m not saying the BenQ DW1620A can’t burn -R format, I’ve proven it burns better or every bit as well as my NEC ND3500AG does when it comes even to the cheapest of -R’s. It’s all in ones preference, that is why we have both formats. Competition is good - competition is what keeps the prices down and keeps them going down, competition is what helped our drives become as cheap as they are. I wouldn’t want to see -R completely drop out of the race because then you’d only have one format and I do like having a choice when I require it. :slight_smile:


#18

spath,

please remember the comment you made yourself in addition to that “-R vs. +R” article.

Reaction Posted by spath on 27 September 2003 - 01:49 | Moderated @ 1 | react
The only advantage of - over + that I could
find is copyright management : thanks to its
pre-embossed informations, DVD-R(W) discs
can be made much more difficult to copy.
I asked Pioneer for more ideas but did not
get any answer ; anyone who knows such
advantage of - over + is welcome to mail me.

Thanks for reading it and for your short comment.
:bigsmile:


#19

True, bitsetting surely doesn’t make a given disc any better and there may be some hype regarding it … but the fact that a small bit within the media descriptor will turn a formerly unrecognized disc into a working one makes me wonder … IMO, in 2 years from now, nobody will bother with it anyway since most incompatible devices will be retired from operation by then.

As for -R and +R … I have made my personal decision towards +R and I am totally happy with it because +R always gave me better results on the 4 DVD writers I have owned thus far (additionally, it seems to be hard to find good quality -R media around where I live) … and whether + or - will be established as some de-facto-standard is, after all, a customer’s decision.


#20

This is the most important about those two formats, I think - competition!

On doom 9 I found one difference one might be judged as a real advantage of DVD-R(W), to quote:

What is the capacity of a DVD disc?

DVD-R/W: 4,707,000,000 Bytes, i.e. 4,489 MB or 4,38 GB
DVD+R/W: 4,700,000,000 Bytes, i.e. 4483 MB.

About 6MB more for DVD- :wink: Well not so great.

To quote from Why DVD+ is superior to DVD-, some advantages of DVD+ are

linking: “So the smaller the gap and the jump, the better quality and compatibility we get : -RW allows a 32T large linking gap and does not care about this slicing level jump, while +RW allows a 8T large linking gap and a maximum limit for this jump under any condition.”
and
Multisession: “So every -R(W) recording session has to start with a border-in area (except the first one, which starts with the lead-in) and stop with a border-out area. However, the size of these border zones is quite amazing : 32 to 96 MB for the first zone, then 6 to 18 MB for the next ones. This means that a b disc containing 3 recorded sessions can require up to 132 MB (more than 2% of the complete storage capacity) just for separating these regions.[/b] …On the other hand, when multiple recording sessions are used on a DVD+R(W) disc, Intro and Closure zones are used(the counterpart of border-in and border-out), but they are always 2 MB large : therefore, with + format, a 3 sessions disc always uses only 4 MB to delimit the regions
which is really on DVD+´s side.
Then again, read:
“… partially record a DVD-R(W) disc … border zones are used, which are meant to make this partially recorded disc compatible with standard DVD-ROM players.” So the + region delimiting may not play well on std DVD-ROM hardware?

To close, there is one quote which I think tells it all, also from the doom9 FAQ:
“Questions you should not ask
… 2. Is DVD+ or DVD- better? You’ll only cause flamewars, fought by users who use single-format writers and who have paid more than they are worth…

:bigsmile: