Why are my DVD-Rs failing? :(

[Chad_Bronson]

As above, I do a lot of recording on a no-name DVD recorder that I bought in August last year. (Vistron DHR-5006) from eBay. Initally, these discs scanned alright when I finalised them and made them ready for use, but some recordings, less than three months later, are dying out!

What's going on!? I exclusively use Maxell discs (Under the RitekF1 dye) for my recorder and my computer burner. But there seems to be a correlation - Because the discs which were produced on my computer are scanning back okay, yet the discs from the recorder itself... Aren't.

Am I right to assume it must be a recorder problem then? When I scanned them shortly after producing them they seem to be okay - But now some discs won't even reach the 20% mark

Some of my Ritek discs have blue dye mark smears - Obviously unnatural, but I didn't think anything of it since they seemed okay at first, and I was reassured by the guys here at Club MyCE that the RitekF1 dye is okay.

The burner I used are a Phillips DVD8701/67 which was produced about six years ago in my computer burner. I don't know what the recorder is however, and I don't want to crack it open...

The discs produced on a computer are verifying back okay, both on the Phillips and the BenQ I have now replaced the Phillips with. Some of the discs however are verifying back successfully on IMGBurn - So it's not all doomed.

But why is it being so skittish, granted that those (Didn't have time to test them all, I'm afraid) I tested all verified back decently? Is it a disc problem? Is it my recorder?

PS - Since last year the wise you chaps advised me to not use CMC. That's probably a good thing, so cheers for that

[Chad_Bronson]

I’d also like to add that these discs seem to be verifying okay on my mum’s laptop DVD-ROM drive. (Produced by Sony) Just to add to the confusion

[Kerry56]

Over the last five or six years we’ve been pretty consistent in our recommendations of Verbatim AZO dye dvds and Taiyo Yuden. Those are generally the first types mentioned when anyone asks which dvds should be used. Both have been around a long time, they have good support in the firmware of the vast majority of drives and have good records in longevity.

I avoid Ritek personally. I understand that the F1 series of Ritek dvds are reasonably good, but there is no compelling argument to buy them when Verbatim AZO and TY disks are easily available.

Your problem may have little to do with the disks themselves, and is simply a bad match between the Ritek disks and the firmware of your dvd recorder. Just because the initial burn verifies doesn’t mean it is a particularly good burn. It might not play back well at all in a really picky player.

You might try cleaning the laser on the recorder, but that would mean opening it up.

I suspect that using TY 8x disks would solve your issues, but I do not know if they are as readily available in your area as they are here in the US from online shops.

[Chad_Bronson]

I’ve been on here long enough to read the messaging boards about the recommendations about Verbatim / Taiyo Yuden But ordinarily they aren’t available in shops that I’ve seen - Only way to get, in particular Taiyo Yuden, is via internet ordering, which I’m not too fond of.

I’m not actually sure what the problem is to be honest. As I said they seem to verify okay on my mums Sony laptop drive, and if it was a dud it would have failed outright. But to fail on TWO burners (Phillips / BenQ)? Suspicious.

[Wombler]

The problem is the instability of the dye types on cheap media and changes in ambient temperature, humidity and exposure to light (especially UV light) can cause the recorded data to degrade.

Oxidisation of the metallic reflective layer (‘DVD rot’) can also cause discs to degrade but this is longer term and normally a less common problem.

Recordings don’t degrade over night and discs decay gradually before eventually failing. On media that’s eventually due to fail, if you scan it every few months or so you’ll see the errors slowly increase until some of the data becomes entirely unreadable (even with error correction).

In fact DVD’s built in error correction distorts people’s perspective of things as they may assume that everything is okay (since the disc is still readable) until it catastrophically fails.

Also you can get good and bad batches of cheaper media so it’s more of a lottery as to what you get. With quality media you’ll also get a higher degree of consistency between batches and that’s another valuable thing to have.

Cheap media might seem like a good deal at the time and you’ll probably have no problems burning them but as Kerry says longevity is the key thing and it’s false economy if you eventually start losing your recordings/data.

So if you’ve anything you can’t afford to lose, now is the time to back it up on decent quality media.

[B]Wombler[/B]

[Chad_Bronson]

Hey Wombler,

Sorry to sound a tad arrogant, but you’re telling me things I already know, but I do appreciate that anyway. What I can’t fathom is the fact that the RitekF1 is reported to be an excellent Ritek dye (As is everyone apart from the G05 fiasco, but that’s behind us) and I’m getting failures cropping up on a lot of discs.

[B]What I’m asking is why is one drive reading the disc with no errors, and another one reporting with errors? [/B]Might this be a firmware issue, or a drive giving up? They’ve not had rough and tumble, infact I must have only watched them once before putting them back in their sleeves.

Some of them have mysterious blue streaks which I feel must be investigated. Might it be worthwhile to blitz my data and reback them up?

It’s getting a bit ridiculous since I backed up some Bulkpaq discs after being told they were garbage

Okay, I’ll tell you what. I’ll seek out a firmware upgrade for the BenQ drive, and verify the disc. Only firmware issues can be resolved, espically since it’s reading back okay on a different drive.

[pepst]

[QUOTE=Chad_Bronson;2592969][B]What I’m asking is why is one drive reading the disc with no errors, and another one reporting with errors? [/B][/QUOTE]
Some drives are much better readers than others.

[QUOTE=Wombler;2592964]Cheap media might seem like a good deal at the time and you’ll probably have no problems burning them but as Kerry says longevity is the key thing and it’s false economy if you eventually start losing your recordings/data.
So if you’ve anything you can’t afford to lose, now is the time to back it up on decent quality media.[/QUOTE]

[bigmike7]

Yo-

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: [B]There is nothing cheap about cheap media![/B]

[Wombler]

[QUOTE=Chad_Bronson;2592969]Hey Wombler,

Sorry to sound a tad arrogant, but you’re telling me things I already know, but I do appreciate that anyway. [/QUOTE]

No problem.

As a Mod though I try and bear in mind the interests of everyone reading the thread and not just the person I’m replying to.

What I can’t fathom is the fact that the RitekF1 is reported to be an excellent Ritek dye (As is everyone apart from the G05 fiasco, but that’s behind us) and I’m getting failures cropping up on a lot of discs.

All I can say is that your own experiences appear to contradict that, which could be down to inconsistencies in production batches or perhaps even the reported longevity claims aren’t in actuality quite as good as they’re claimed to be (and I have seen negative reports regarding RitekF1 in this regard before).

[B]What I’m asking is why is one drive reading the disc with no errors, and another one reporting with errors? [/B]Might this be a firmware issue, or a drive giving up? They’ve not had rough and tumble, infact I must have only watched them once before putting them back in their sleeves.

As Pepst has said some drives are better readers than others. This is possibly down to differences in the error correction routines but in general I’ve also noticed that DVD writers seem to be better at reading problem discs than ROM drives.

Some of them have mysterious blue streaks which I feel must be investigated. Might it be worthwhile to blitz my data and reback them up?

Hard to tell without seeing it but that sounds like a bad batch to me as the entirety of the written portion of the disc should be a uniform colour. Banding can appear though and this is quite normal as the firmware may be set to alter the write strategy for different portions of the disc.

It’s getting a bit ridiculous since I backed up some Bulkpaq discs after being told they were garbage

Bullkpaq are definitely poor but I still have my doubts that RitekF1 can be regarded as premium grade media and unfortunately your own negative experiences would seem to confirm that.

Okay, I’ll tell you what. I’ll seek out a firmware upgrade for the BenQ drive, and verify the disc. Only firmware issues can be resolved, espically since it’s reading back okay on a different drive.

Personally I think the problem is with the media but you may want to upgrade your firmware to help confirm this for you.

[B]Wombler[/B]

[Chad_Bronson]

[QUOTE=Wombler;2593108]No problem.

As a Mod though I try and bear in mind the interests of everyone reading the thread and not just the person I’m replying to.

All I can say is that your own experiences appear to contradict that, which could be down to inconsistencies in production batches or perhaps even the reported longevity claims aren’t in actuality quite as good as they’re claimed to be (and I have seen negative reports regarding RitekF1 in this regard before).

As Pepst has said some drives are better readers than others. This is possibly down to differences in the error correction routines but in general I’ve also noticed that DVD writers seem to be better at reading problem discs than ROM drives.

Hard to tell without seeing it but that sounds like a bad batch to me as the entirety of the written portion of the disc should be a uniform colour. Banding can appear though and this is quite normal as the firmware may be set to alter the write strategy for different portions of the disc.

Bulkpaq are definitely poor but I still have my doubts that RitekF1 can be regarded as premium grade media and unfortunately your own negative experiences would seem to confirm that.

Personally I think the problem is with the media but you may want to upgrade your firmware to help confirm this for you.

[B]Wombler[/B][/QUOTE]

Ahh I see, no worries about that

Righto, so I’ll break down an update as to what the problem is. The dye in itself has proven to be quite stable in my experience and I trust it far better than the Bulkpaq crap I was previously using. Although brand names mean nothing, I’ve been a huge Maxell fanboy since their cassette days, and since their RitekF1 discs can be got for as much as CMC MAG AM3 - To get inferior, constantly retweaking dyes doesn’t make sense to me, but I was assured by the good people of MyCE that this dye was stable, and was based on the Fuji Oxo Life dye ( I think that’s what it’s called) which has gotten some good rep

I have updated the firmware for my BenQ but still similar results. I don’t like this skittishness, I can’t afford to be ignorant and say "Oh, it’s just my burner playing up, because if my DVDs are really going, I better back 'em up before their going, going gone! :Z

This term “banding” - What does this mean? I’m still new here and I’ve never come across this phrase I’m assuming that because certain writers vary their speed during the burning process (like my DVD recorder) the colours of the disc can vary slightly from light to a darker tone of magneta (Since Ritek dyes are usually darker than the Fake TY / CMC combo).

If the uber uber discs that can’t be replaced ( ) work on my mums Sony (LiteOn, it seems…) laptop DVD-ROM reader, I can be assured it’s not all disaster. Even for a Ritek dye, 3 months isn’t very long and I know the F1 can perform much better than so.

[Chad_Bronson]

Also, sorry to reconfuse matters, but regarding the BenQ being a bit finicky about reading discs, I noticed that the bit set on my Vistron recorder are set to “DVD-R” and not, for example, set to DVD-ROM. Might this also affect reading, granted they are video DVDs?

[Wombler]

A lot of questions there.

Yes they use the Fujifilm Oxonol dye which in general seems to get positive remarks.

Variances in production quality seem to be the issue here though as the discs you purchased have peculiar streaks and that’s not normal.

Yeah banding is caused when the writer changes write strategy during the burning process which can create the appearance of clearly defined concentric bands, rather like an archery target I suppose.

Not all drives do this and even when they do it’s not always immediately visible depending on the colour of the dye.

It’s a good thing rather than a bad one as it shows that the write strategy has been optimised for each individual section of the disc rather than using averaged settings for the entire disc.

With regard to bitsetting you should always set it to DVD-ROM for all +R/+RW media.

For stand alone players it might make a difference but it shouldn’t matter what it’s set to when reading a disc in a DVD writer.

[B]Wombler[/B]

[Chad_Bronson]

I see, thanks for clearing that up

I would also like to ask, there is something that has been baffling me. When a disc is being burned in a standalone (forget about banding for a moment) does the disc constantly burn at 1x / real time? (It must be to be able to record “as it happens”)

I can eject the disc (when stopped, of course) so this makes it useful if I need to make another recording on another disc and then put the disc back in when needs be. At this point, portions of the disc have been burned, but they are unreadable in another player (Because it hasn’t been finalised).

So then say if I wanted to finalise the disc so no more recording is possible, does the recorder then scan over the recorded parts at the speed the burner is optimised for and put like a blanket “layer” over it perhaps which makes it viewable on other players?

Whereas for DVD burners in computers, the data is recorded at the disc burning speed set by the software. correct me if I’m wrong, but does that small freeze and/or indicate finalising disc is this the same as writing a blanket layer to make it usable?

Sorry for the hazy description

[Wombler]

That’s correct, stand alone recorders record at single speed since they can’t receive the data any quicker than real time.

Some players can’t understand discs with an open session and that’s why you have to finalise before they can read them.

All that finalising does is close the last session on the disc meaning that nothing more can be written to it and any blank space is just left blank.

The write speed for DVD writers can be set in the software but is ultimately governed by the write strategies contained in the drive’s firmware.

You can only select the speeds allowed by the firmware for that particular disc type.

Some people overspeed burning by reflashing the firmware with altered write strategies and but it’s not something I’d recommend unless you know exactly what you’re doing.

[B]Wombler[/B]

[Chad_Bronson]

Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

On the Maxell packaging, it does say that it works with burners running from 1x to 16x - So I have a feeling it was tweaked and optimised for 1x burning. Now, many MID codes are not too brilliant handling 1x recordings, particularly on PC burners…

[Wombler]

The MID codes are just a way of identifying the disc type (Media Identification Code).

DVD writer manufacturers optimise the write strategies for the most popular MIDs and that ends up determining what speed options are available in the software.

It’s possible to override this as I’ve said but TBH I don’t see the point in this as most people are wanting maximum reliability.

[B]Wombler[/B]

[chef]

[QUOTE=Chad_Bronson;2593240]Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

On the Maxell packaging, it does say that it works with burners running from 1x to 16x - [B]So I have a feeling it was tweaked and optimised for 1x burning[/B]. Now, many MID codes are not too brilliant handling 1x recordings, particularly on PC burners…[/QUOTE]

No, its just the usual compaitlbility marketing blobb to sell as much as possible of these discs.
You will not find easily burners which even can burn DVD-R at 1x these days…
These disks were “optimized” for burning at 8x and 12x, not even 16x or higher.

[Chad_Bronson]

Good lord, I’m so sorry about the late reply!

I have something else which might throw a spanner in the works. Some of my discs have blue streaks on them (from poor dye management I can imagine, something I never had on a CMC disc) If a disc fails on one drive but verifies okay, it can still be read. So, if a disc reads on my mums Sony DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive but not on my BenQ DVD Burner, it’s not out and out failed.

So therefore, I’ve come to this conclusion. Something must be wrong when the BenQ burner reads the record management information wrong - Which, of course, is the name of the burner: “DVSKOREA (etc etc)” so therefore, I believe the BenQ can’t possibly process such information, reading it maybe as a faulty firmware, and then giving up.

The Sony however, may recognise the firmware it was recorded on and is able to verify it successfully, or it simply might be a little more tolerant

[cholla]

I think you got it with:

[QUOTE=Chad_Bronson;2597934] it simply might be a little more tolerant[/QUOTE]
IMO if you really want what is on the discs with the blue streaks copy them now while you can. Then burn them to better discs.
I liked the “spanner” reference but some of us country boys might not know that’s a wrench.
For me no problem . I like the some of the Brit sitcoms we get over here “across the pond” & I love the Doctor Who’s with Tom Baker . That is where I “learned” my English . Otherwise my native language is Texan American . Like : “Howdy Y’all let’s mosey over to the corral where the cayuses are. Then we can round up some doggies & mavericks.”

[Chad_Bronson]

Cholla - Absolutely, the blue streaks as I noticed is partly due to dye defects, but in the majority of cases is a result from recording on already scratched discs, which IIRC was a result of dropping the spindle on my floor. So many discs everywhere I noticed relatively minor scratches on the discs before I recorded on the disc, now they’ve being highlighted more so as a result of being recorded on.

This happened as I burned a copy of Minimum Maximum earlier on my BenQ computer burner. It verified without problems, but dips about halfway through which might be as a result from the scratches.

Does the dye “colour” matter itself? What I mean is I’ve had some decent experience with the Ritek dye, which tends to be darker in colour, and terrible experience with CMC discs, which has a lighter dye. (reflectivity and all that, maybe?)

The majority of my recordings are recordings which are, albeit not worthless to me, are recordings of films and TV shows where in 95% of the time can be bought from the shop. All in all not a huge loss if disaster is imminent because they can be got again

Right now however the RitekF1 dye has been holding up. But since the BenQ can’t read them correctly, if at all - I’m starting to get nervous.