Verbatim DLP Super AZO & Plextor PX-716A

Hi all,

I’ve the following question:

If I burn audio files (wav) using the above mentioned CD-Rs media with my Plextor, the sound is very cold and sharp.

If I use Maxell or TDK I get a much warmer and full sound.

My standalone DVDPlayer is a Denon DVD 2900, so quite a good machine, I was thinking to the combination media/dvd player, but then I tried to play the same discs on a Sony and the Verbatim sounds the same.

Has anybody experienced this before?
BTW, I tried different burning speeds, 4x or 10x, no change.

Anything I can do with Varirec?

The fact is that I’m fed up to throw away all the Verbatim CD-Rs I burn with music just because they sound awful :sad:

Thanks for your valuable comments.

Cheers
Alex

Hi :slight_smile:

“If I burn audio files (wav) using the above mentioned CD-Rs media with my Plextor, the sound is very cold and sharp.
If I use Maxell or TDK I get a much warmer and full sound.”

:eek: Sorry to be abrupt, but this is a 100% psychological effect. It’s simply impossible. CDs are DIGITAL medias. There can be no difference in sound AT ALL between different discs, unless the burn is so crappy that it introduces artifacts from C2 errors. Even so, apart from skipping or clicks etc…, you wouldn’t hear any difference in “warmth” or anything of the sort.

Hi,

Unfortunately, I have to contradict you, in principle they all sound different but the difference is in most of the cases acceptable and very subjective, meaning that you like more or less the difference in tonality.

In this case, it’s really another planet, Verbatim sound awful.

Even my little boy, before I even mentioned that noticed that.

Maybe I can do some test to check the C2 errors, but honestly I am sceptical, unless it is the spindle that I bought that is crap. :wink:

BTW, I use high end hi-fi equipment, the sound reproduction is very analytical and as qualities of media and/or recordings are highlighted, defects are as well :rolleyes:

Cheers
Alex

C2 errors can cause change in sound apart from skipping and clicks. What if the drive interpolated the errorness zone. It has been suggested that these types of interpolation can cause sound difference. (At least opening up in a wave editior can show slight differences between a good and bad disc that played fine thanks to interpolation but if people can actually here the difference between bad interpolated and good is still a big question. )

“Metallic” sound can be caused by the error correction circuit of some players in some cases. Sounds kinda like a low bitrate mp3. I’d try it in some more players if I were you. How does it sound through the computer cd-rom?

Q.

Good point.
Bitrate is 192 and yes, difference is evident also playing them in the Plexor, I tried as well in a Sony player, same problem.

Cheers

Well, here is the DiscQualityTest and it looks perfect :doh:

Alex


Use Plextools or pxscan instead. Erik Deppe had to remove support for Plextor drives in Nero CD/DVD Speed.

Here we are, same result. :slight_smile:

Alex


[slightly off topic]

Looks like I was kinda wrong, I googled and found numerous articles from sound engineers and audio enthousiasts debating of differences in CD-Rs sound. My bad. Though for myself I’m not convinced this is not delusional in most cases, as many similar phenomenons have been demonstrated to be by sociopsychology.

But when it’s George Massenburg (one of the sound engineers I admire the most) who states that he does hear a difference, well, I can’t just dismiss it. :disagree:

Still, I’m rather baffled, since I’m myself a musician and a sound engineer, burning audio CDs from my own mixes an masters is for me a daily activity since 1995, and I never, ever noticed any variation in sound. :confused:

Maybe my different CD players have all been too good at treating reflectivity, jitter and other factors implied (according to what I found on the subject) for any difference to be audible. I’ve been struck by audible differences between CD players, that’s for sure, and have always choosed good-sounding ones (two Rotels and a Cambridge, the latter being a litle harsh compared to the Rotels but does fine with classical music).

I’ve just compared three different CDs that I burned recently from the same master, a Maxell, a TY and a Ritek, using my two Rotel players simultaneously and switching medias etc…, listening with a Sennheiser HD600, and well, call me deaf but I could’nt hear any difference.

[/ end of slightly off topic]

“Here we are, same result.”

Not quite. CDSpeed reported no C1 at all, I guess CdSpeed must be incompatible with Plextor drives for CD scanning (anyone can confirm/infirm this?).

Like said above by Qyngali.
CD/DVD speed doesn’t support plextor drives.

“Like said above by Qyngali.”

Indeed :o

Sorry I’m confused. In the first post you said they were wav files and now you say they’re 192kpbs mp3’s? Do you mean that the wav files are made from mp3s?

I was thinking that it might be a C2 error correction issue that was specific to the media and your home player but now that you say you can also hear the difference on the computers plextor drive (which scans the media with zero c2 errors) then I’ve got to say it’s a psychological effect.

If the difference really is audible on the plextor then you should rip some tracks to a lossless format (eg flac) and do a blind A-B test to prove that you can really hear a difference. Otherwise Im sorry but I have to say that I don’t believe it.

BTW. The free program “foobar200” can help you rip the tracks and also let you do a listening test to prove that you can still “hear” the difference when you dont know beforehand which track is ripped from which CD.

@uart
Hi mate :slight_smile:
Psychological effect: make your own opinion with the following reading (I’m no vouching for it, just that it made me have second thoughts…)
http://www.johnvestman.com/digital_myth.htm
Choosen excerpt:
“Even Maxell 700 mb silver CDs sound different from the Maxell Pro or Maxell “Music” CDRs (and those black ones sound harsh!!!). TDK’s sound different from Memorex, Mitsui, Verbatim, Sony… If you’re cutting CDs on a home computer, don’t use the black ink-on-the-bottm CDRs or generally cheap CDRs. You get what you pay for. Different burners can have different laser power and the bottom of the CDR may need something different to perform well. (If this concept pushes your computer buttons, be sure to read this whole article.)”

Sorry guys,

But I think I’m old enough to recognise psychological effects from real sound difference. :slight_smile:
The mp3 192kpbs files have been converted to wav and burned, as it is normally done.

If the difference really is audible on the plextor then you should rip some tracks to a lossless format (eg flac) and do a blind A-B test to prove that you can really hear a difference. Otherwise Im sorry but I have to say that I don’t believe it.

No need for flac or SHN, provided that the terms of comparison are the same, garbage in garbage out, if the difference is evident in the Plextor (you can imagine in a hi-end chain :eek: ) it just proves that the whole spindle has a problem, since I’m experiencing this issue since the very first cd I burned from this spindle.

You are free to believe me or not, but even my little boy and my wife can immediately say, that’s the Verbatim :eek: , medium range is less evident and high frequencies are awfully high.

I just asked if anybody else has experienced this before, apparently not.

I’ve been into hi-end for more than 30 years and I’ve learnt that the only thing that matters is how it sounds, you can have the best technical specs in the world, but still get a poor sound.

So, it’s not worth to discuss this more because probably the media I’ve bought have a problem, al the rest is rhetoric.

You may not believe me or take me as a stupid, but I bet if you ask Mr George Massenburg (mentioned above by Francksoy), I’m sure his thinking is not far from this.

Cheers to all and thanks very much for your comments :slight_smile:

Alex

“but even my little boy and my wife can immediately say, that’s the Verbatim”

If YOU know it’s the Verb, they’ll know it’s the Verb, one way or another. Only with a stranger making them listen to the discs, or if you yourself wouldn’t know that it’s the Verb then only would it mean something without a doubt.

Here is a must read for you:

A horse named Hans

Now I’m not saying you ARE delusional (I can see you’re definitly not an ignorant or a dumb person :disagree: - like we say in french “you forgot to be stupid” LOL;)), just that in this kind of cases it’s generally VERY likely to be a psychological issue and I wanted to point this out for other readers. :smiley:

Hey, then you really think I’m stupid :disagree:
Of course, I did not tell them but 30 sec. of listen was enough, which means when it is evident it is eveident :iagree:

Nous sommes voisins tu le savais ?

Salut
Alex

Hey Metallo, just noticed you live in Bruxelles, I guess you know I’m from Belgium from visiting Soysoy’s site, right? :slight_smile:

Eh bien oui, nous sommes presques voisins, ancien Bruxellois j’ai déménagé dans le Hainaut… drôle de région :bigsmile:

“Of course, I did not tell them but 30 sec. of listen was enough, which means when it is evident it is eveident”

I think I didn’t make myself clear… I’m talking about a socio-psychologic/communication phenomenon here. Of course you didn’t tell them! :bigsmile: - the fact that YOU know it’s the verb that is playing, even if THEY don’t know, leads you to unconsciously inform them (body language) that it’s a “problematic disc” and as people living with you and close to you, they can read (more or less consciously) your body language and detect something’s wrong…

One of the first thing you learn when taking communication classes is that “its impossible not to communicate”. That’s why any perceptive comparison that is not conducted with double-blind methodology can only be subjective and flawed. Editing audio tapes and vocal tracks is a great teacher in this matter.

Well once again I precise that I’m in no way stating that your harsh-sounding Verbs are just a psychological effect. I just like to point out that listening is by nature subjective, and I can’t ever, ever agree with statements like “when it is evident it is evident” :disagree:

BTW, 30 seconds is far too long to detect tonal differences between two sound sources. If the difference is not audible immediatly, after less than 10 seconds the brain has adjusted anyway… I guess you just meant “a very short time” :slight_smile:
Sound definition and sound image differences are another story, these need of course more “in depth” and longer listening… but tonal differences are either heard immediatly or not heard at all.
It’s exactly like colours actually: if you first look at something blueish then at something greenish, you’ll notice the difference immediatly, and if you don’t because the two colours are similar, looking longer at the second colour won’t ever help to make the difference with the first color. It’s the immediate switch/contrast that will trigger the difference in perception.

Once again I wrote the former paragraph more towards forum readers in general than towards you, as I guess you wrote “30 seconds” as an image. :slight_smile:

And NO, I don’t think you’re stupid, you moron! :wink:

Cheers :slight_smile:

Not convinced, I made a little test.
Find my comments there

Cheers :slight_smile:

Franck,

You drove this discussion out of topic or at least to something different from what I originally meant into my original thread.

I only wanted to know if anybody in the forum had this issue before.
The answer is no, therefore it means my verbatims sound awful because the spindle must be defective.

This has nothing to do with audiophile world, that’s another story on which we could debate (and we do) for years.

My case, is absolutely evident, in audiphile world differences are much “slighter” to hear, this one can be heard by anybody after a few seconds.

Therefore, for me this topic is closed because I had enough replies to understand that this is not occurred to anybody in this forum, yet.

Just to be sure and when I have some more time, I will buy a verbatim in a shop and try if I have the same problem, I would be surprised, given that all other brands sound “more or less in audiophile terms” the same.

Regards
Alex