Ultradisc 24 KT Gold CD-R

Now I like to talk about these Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-R

They are hard to find and are sold for at least 2.30$ a piece if you buy a spindle of 50:
http://www.mofi.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=11&idproduct=29
Or even 4$ a piece if you buy a few in jewel cases:
http://www.mofi.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=25

In this last link you can read claimsmade about the dye used for manufacturing:

Proprietary Photosensitive Dye

Unlike commonly used CD-Rs containing Cyanine (blue/green dye) or Metal Azo (deep blue dye), which lose their characteristics quickly from exposure to light and heat, the 24KT Gold ULTRADISC CD-R utilizes a patented photosensitive dye which ensures accurate burning and stability, plus exceptional longevity and durability.
Whereas the two other types of dye are formed with linear molecular structures, which break down easily when exposed to the elements, the unique photosensitive dye utilized in the ULTRADISC CD-R has an annular structure which forms a strong and extremely stable chemical bond
And how this dye is supposed to react under the laser:
Accurate and Precise Information Retrieval

The ULTRADISC CD-R’s specialized dye reacts more quickly to the writing laser than do other dyes. It reacts in a “burst” mode instead of the sluggish “melt” mode. Due to this instantaneous reaction, precise pit edges are formed.

So it is said that this « unique photosensitive dye » utilized for the Ultradisc™ 24 KT Gold CD-R"s does not contain Cyanine (blue/green dye) or Metal Azo (deep blue dye).

This unique dye used has an annular molecular tructure and is probably not Phthalocyanine.
So what is left as possible dye ?
formozan dye
Oxonol non-metallic organic (Fuji)
or Metallic Dipyrromethene (Mitsui)

The last to dyes are supposed to be used by for DVD and maybe not for CD-R’s
as said here :
« Advanced concepts of blank DVD media quality »


But Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold DVD-R exist also and with the same claims for the dye quality and longevity :
http://www.mofi.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=93

So I like to know what the experts think about these Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-R
Are they:

  • realy worth the money (3$ or 4$ a piece)
  • or are the « HiSPACE CD-R Digital Photo - Gold technology » such as good in quality ? (I cant get them in Europe for around 0,70 € a piece)

BTW who do you think makes these Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-Rs for ‘Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab’ ?

Hi franz99 you should start a new thread for this i would think.

[quote=rolling56;1927439]Hi franz99 you should start a new thread for this i would think.[/quote] * * DrageMester casts [I]Move Posts to New Thread[/I] spell * * :cool:

Hi Franz99 have you ever used this media? I f yes what do you think about?
This media is a cult for HI_END (hi-fi) folks :bigsmile:.
Know who is the manufacturer is so simple! In my opinion there is a lot of commercial advertising on them the legend as I said has been created around it by the above mentioned folks!

My wild guess would be MAM-A.

According to this

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=26012

they’re the known Mitsui (Mam-E, 12x, 74min, ATIP 97:27:55, Phthalocyanine).

[U]Edit:[/U]
Oh, yeah, and we had that question before :slight_smile:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f33/cd-r-ultradisc-24kt-gold-650mb-218117/
[U]
Edit 2:[/U]
There is even a review:
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Reviews/Specific.aspx?ArticleId=11800

Those disc’s are the older MAM-A 650mb disc’s which use the optimized for lower speed pthalocyanine dye.

So there the same as Pro Audio Master Gold. Except that MSFL does batch wise quality controle themselves.

Feurio webstore checked them up after a fancy report in audio magazines and there conclusion was that they were not much better as the MAM-E media they sold at that time, but they were much more expensive !

By the way MAM-A upgraded there propaganda. They have new test data on there site which now states 329 years for the cd-r’s and 119 years for the dvd-r’s. They probably had to raise the time because cheaper gold media from other manufacturers claime also 300 years :-).
http://www.mam-a.com/technology/technical_papers/documents/MAM_Archive_media_tests.pdf

Only problem for all those manufacturers including MAM is that there pthalocyanine gold media was outperformed by third party testing by terrible silver TY disc’s ussing a (metal stabilized) cyanine dye.:a
Except light exposure were those pthalocyanine disc’s do perform better.

i would not consider myself a “expert” in this area… but if you ask me based on what i read on these forums. i would say, there NOT worth the money they ask for those discs since you can get some basic TY CD-R’s etc that probably last just as long (for probably .50cents per disc TOPS) if not longer if treated decently (aka kept out of direct sunlight etc, which is not to hard to do) :wink:

and those 100-300 year claims. does it really “matter” ? … cause odds are in even 20 years tops, most likely people will be way beyond CD-R’s by then anyways so you would most likely convert your data burned on cd-r’s to dvd’s to hd-dvd etc etc etc. i think you get the general point :wink:

me personally, if i can get a good 10 years out of a disc (cd or dvd etc) ill be more than happy, although when i burn something im generally expecting it to last a bare minimum of 5 years. which is easily possible with quality media (TY/Verbatim for the most part) as im sure this is basically proven to last a good 5+ years without breaking a sweat from the scans and TRT test people do on these forums.

[QUOTE=dakhaas;1928191]Those disc’s are the older MAM-A 650mb disc’s which use the optimized for lower speed [B]pthalocyanine[/B] dye. [/QUOTE]
Does [B][U]all[/U][/B] pthalocyanine dye realy have an [B]annular[/B] molecular structure which makes it more stable than cyanine and Metal Azo,
as described in the claims of MSFL:
http://www.mofi.com/productcart/pc/v...0&idproduct=25

Proprietary Photosensitive Dye

Unlike commonly used CD-Rs containing Cyanine (blue/green dye) or Metal Azo (deep blue dye), which lose their characteristics quickly from exposure to light and heat, the 24KT Gold ULTRADISC CD-R utilizes a patented photosensitive dye which ensures accurate burning and stability, plus exceptional longevity and durability.

Whereas the two other types of dye are formed with linear molecular structures, which break down easily when exposed to the elements, the unique photosensitive dye utilized in the ULTRADISC CD-R has an [B]annular structure[/B] which forms a strong and [B]extremely stable[/B] chemical bond

Hmm like to ask really tough questions do you :slight_smile:
At this moment I do not have the time to dig up the answer. I’m not a organic chemistry expert. :slight_smile:

But Mitsui/MAM-A’s pthalocyanine definatly is a annular structure and I can guarantee you 100% that MSFL disc’s with mistui code that say made in america are made by MAM-A.

[B]Thanks a lot for your answer dakhaas ![/B]

The important point is that you knew already that phtalocyanine has a annular structure
and on top a bit of research with google seems to confirm that the phtalocyanine molecule has an annular structure.

I have been asking this tough question because after reading here:
http://www.mofi.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=25
this “strange” description of the dye used to manufacture these Ultradiscâ„¢ Gold CD-R
I was thinking that this specific « patented photosensitive dye » could be the quite rare [B]Metallic Dipyrromethene dye[/B] that Mitsui was supposed to use for DVD’s (and maybe not for CD-R’s …),
see here :
« Advanced concepts of blank DVD media quality »

So because you know [B]for sure [/B]that the Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-R
are manufactured by MAM-A (in the US) with low speed optimized phtalocyanine dye
[B]can we make the conclusion that they are not any better than[/B]

  • the ones tested here:
    « Emtec CDR 700 MB 40x gold top digital photo »
    http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/EMTEC-CD-R-Gold-Review

  • which seem to be the same as these « CD-R Digital Photo - Gold technology » sold under the brand HiSPACE and also made by MPO (Moulages Plastiques de l’Ouest in France)

[B]Both[/B] last ones have the [B]same Atip[/B] of Lead in: [B]97m 25s 07[/B] and I cant get them in France for around 0,70 € a piece.

From what has been posted above by hwp the Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-R seem to be: [B]97 m 27s 55s[/B]

From the mediacode point of view the differences are the capacity (80 min vs 74 min) and probably the supported recording speeds in current firmware.

The dye used to manufacture the Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-R
might be a [B]unique « low speed optimized » phtalocyanine[/B]

[QUOTE=franz99;1930630]
So because you know [B]for sure [/B]that the Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-R
are manufactured by MAM-A (in the US) with low speed optimized phtalocyanine dye
[B]can we make the conclusion that they are not any better than[/B]

  • the ones tested here:
    « Emtec CDR 700 MB 40x gold top digital photo »
    http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/EMTEC-CD-R-Gold-Review

  • which seem to be the same as these « CD-R Digital Photo - Gold technology » sold under the brand HiSPACE and also made by MPO (Moulages Plastiques de l’Ouest in France)

[B]Both[/B] last ones have the [B]same Atip[/B] of Lead in: [B]97m 25s 07[/B] and I cant get them in France for around 0,70 € a piece.

From what has been posted above by hwp the Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-R seem to be: [B]97 m 27s 55s[/B]

From the mediacode point of view the differences are the capacity (80 min vs 74 min) and probably the supported recording speeds in current firmware.

The dye used to manufacture the Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold CD-R
might be a [B]unique « low speed optimized » phtalocyanine[/B][/QUOTE]

97-27-55 =/= (is not) 97-25-07
There not the same. It’s MPO vs MAM-A
So I can’t say which one is better.

Emtec is MPO and MFSL is MAM-A. (for completeness there is also MBIL gold media sold under the kodak brand (worldwide) and under MBIL’s own brand in india and then prodisc makes there own gold media.)

Based upon my experience with silver media from both I can say both have there high and lows but they are not the same. For dvd’s for me personally MPO is clearly the better (own MID, Much better testing results !, the fact that they do give a waranty !) compared to MAM-A’ stuff( which only has better scratch resistance as MPO !)
But with my silver cd-r’s it is much more dificult. MAM-A/E better has a beter playback compatability (I’m talking abouth the mitsui coded silver range). While MPO actually didn’t show the slight aging results my MAM-E cd-r’s are showing. Yes my silver MAM-E cd-r’s are degrading. It degrades very slow but unlike my much older TY disc’s C1 errors are slowly going up.

THen there is the following. MFSL buys the highest possible grade MAM-A produces. (archival grade) Most other compannies who bought GOLD media from MAM-A bought the standard A-grade which is lower.Also MFSL has there own quality controle. Even while this quality controle isn’t that good it still a extra compared to normal archival grade.

So I can’t tell if we can compare them directly.
What I do know is that some folks compared the MFSL to standard MAM-A gold media. The conclusion was that MFSL was a bit more consistant but not worth the price difference. Which shouldn’t be a suprise.
Offcourse there are still the nice placebo claims of people suggesting that MFSL sounds better.The idea makes them probably feel better because they paid up to 10 times as much :bigsmile:

Thanks dakhaas a lot for all this clarifications

Regarding now [B] MSFL branded DVD-R’s[/B]
introduced more recently around the year 2006:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/MFSL-introducing-the-24-Karat-Gold-ULTRADISC-DVD-R.html

I suppose that these Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold DVD-R
with the same claims for the dye quality and longevity :
http://www.mofi.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=93
are also manufactured by MAM-A with pthalocyanine dye.

It seems that their MID code is [B]MBI 01RG40[/B] :
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f33/cd-r-ultradisc-24kt-gold-650mb-218117/#post1778745

So they will by supported by recent Plextor’s firmwares at speeds ranging from [B]6x to 16x[/B]
[B]and not at 1x as claimed in the advertisement by MSFL ![/B]
And in the 1.06 Plextor PX-760 firmware they are only supported through AutoStrategy …

[QUOTE=franz99;1931207]Thanks dakhaas a lot for all this clarifications

Regarding now [B] MSFL branded DVD-R’s[/B]
introduced more recently around the year 2006:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/MFSL-introducing-the-24-Karat-Gold-ULTRADISC-DVD-R.html

I suppose that these Ultradiscâ„¢ 24 KT Gold DVD-R
with the same claims for the dye quality and longevity :
http://www.mofi.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=93
are also manufactured by MAM-A with pthalocyanine dye.

No because MAM-A doesn’t use a pthalocyanine dye for there dvd’s.:slight_smile:

[quote]
It seems that their MID code is [B]MBI 01RG40[/B] :
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f33/cd-r-ultradisc-24kt-gold-650mb-218117/#post1778745

MAM-A also uses that code for some media. Ussing MBIL stampers. SO it can still be MAM-A. If it says made in america it’s MAM-A.

So they will by supported by recent Plextor’s firmwares at speeds ranging from [B]6x to 16x[/B]
[B]and not at 1x as claimed in the advertisement by MSFL ![/B]
And in the 1.06 Plextor PX-760 firmware they are only supported through AutoStrategy …

[QUOTE=dakhaas;1931590]No because MAM-A doesn’t use a pthalocyanine dye for there dvd’s.:)[/QUOTE]
So the dye MAM-A uses for DVD’s could be this quite rare [B]Metallic Dipyrromethene dye [/B]
that Mitsui was supposed to use for DVD’s,
see here :
« Advanced concepts of blank DVD media quality »