TTH02 warning - degradation

Just thought I’d give you guy’s a warning about TDK TTH02 media. I have one disc (only one left) that was made in Luxembourg (had it about 11 months, burned on the day it was purchased) and it was fine when I last checked (about 1 month ago). However, I can see that the outside edge (blue) of the disc has degraded (looks like its disintegrated and the dye has run into the void created) and the dye seems to have been affected too. The disc still reads fine, but it’s going in the bin. I have attached a scan and TRT of the disc.

There is no glue visible on the outer edge of the disc where the degradation has occured, so it seems poor bonding is to blame, as it is isolated to one area of the disc.

Please take the scan with a pinch of salt though, as this is a BenQ scan of a disc burned in an NEC drive (3540A), so it might not be an accurate scan as BenQ drives are usually picky about NEC burns.

Please be sure to keep checking you’re media.

Kev :slight_smile:

This didn’t come as a surprise as TDK 003, the +R counterpart, has been reported by [B]Francksoy[/B] to have degradation issues too.
My Made in Taiwan TTH02 have slightly degraded, but were already awful after burning :smiley:
I have got rid of almost all of them, and backed up the data again on Verbatim and That’s.

Not surprised - You will often find those crappy TDK spindles at CostCo 2 spindles of 100 for the price of 1, the next step they probably will give them free :smiley: What really gets to me is how come we hear all this talk about crappy media and degrading media and nobody has the balls to launch class action suits against these companies.

Taiyo Yuden is next on the list - I am a volume user and keep a close eye on things and while I have not across a degrading TY yet I do notice manufacturing defects and a bonding issue - The 2 plastics can EASILY be taken apart from one another.

How do they actually define the fitness of DVD media legally? Only the actual burning failures are cases where IMHO the implied warranties apply, there is no required lifespan defined by law :disagree:
The problem with defining a lifespan would be that you have to consider lots of different problems like handling, storage conditions, different burners, and still bad batches can and will always show up somewhere…

Actual burning failures or material defects are rare, and in those cases many retailers and/or distributors will trade your media for new, working media. Contact your retailer and/or Taiyo Yuden about this quality problem.

Degradation issues are a totally different thing and most manufacturers have notices like these on the packaging:

Maxell’s only obligation shall be to replace such quantity of the product proved to be defective in material or workmanship upon receipt. Maxell does not guarantee the recorded data on the DVD+R for any reason. The user shall determine the suitability of product for intended use, and assume all risk and liability in connection therewith.
Translated into plain English: If you lose your family videos because you used RITEK G05, that’s your own problem! :Z

I have only heard of one company, EMTEC (actually not known for good media, as they have used Hong Kong MCC fakes in the past) with free data retrieval (if their Gold DVDs, made by MPO France fail). [B]dakhaas[/B] might know more about this.

Keep in mind that I’m not a lawyer and information in this post may be incorrect. Don’t quote me on nothing. :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks for the heads up. I’m not all that suprised. :frowning:

Actually there are several different grades of TTH02 out there, as some users have had similar issues with them (count me in, also with Made in Luxembourg TTH02), and some others get pretty good results and no degradation issues.

Looks like the best manufacturing quality is offered with the scratchproof version of TTH02. The rest is now a crapshoot. (He he… scratchproof or crapshoot, try saying that aloud very fast… :stuck_out_tongue: )

I wonder how such a previously (and for very long) reliable company as TDK could let things get downhill this way. Only 18 months ago, their media was still top-notch.

Well you can ask yourself the same question about RITEK and TY…:smiley:

[B]RITEK[/B] was never really top-notch. :disagree:
Even before RITEK G05, the antecedents G03 and G02 suffered from quality problems, and some G04 also did. :a

The [B]Taiyo Yuden[/B] issues are much much more complicated. Let me summarize it in a few sentences. If you want me to elaborate, just ask me. :slight_smile:

[B]8x DVD-R DL media:[/B]
DVD-R DL is a problematic format. They deliberately chose DVD-R DL over DVD+R DL because the Japanese market prefers DVD-R over DVD+R for historical and legal reasons (copy-protected TV, CPRM support).

[B]16x DVD media:[/B]
Although 16x TYG03 was already introduced in 2004 (and presented at CEATEC at Makuhari Messe, Chiba), many manufacturers waited with implementing proper burn strategies for TYG03 until late 2005 or even 2006, [I]two[/I] years after the product’s introduction! This situation has improved though, most recent 18x (and some late 16x) drives overspeed 16x Taiyo Yuden media to 18x and include proper burn strategies (LiteOn LH-18A1X, LG GSA-H10N and successors) so 16x Taiyo Yuden is not as bad as it is often considered to be.

It is a fact that some 16x TY batches are only average (TH000015, TH001330, TH001333 for example) while other batches are performing as well as good YUDEN000 T02 or TYG02 if burned in the right burners (TH000020, TH000021, GH000073), but this is another topic. In fact quite some of my Fuji T02 burned worse in my LG than the TH000021 T03 in the same LG.

Note that similar developments during the transition to 16x media were observed at other factories too. Not only TDK, but also companies like CMC have severe QC and support problems. CMC MAG M01 is unsupported by a huge number of burners.

[B]Bonding issues:[/B]
The bonding problems have mainly existed with TYG02. The 8x DVD-R media from Taiyo Yuden is generally slightly worse on the mechanical side, the TYG02 are slightly more sensitive to scratches than YUDEN000 T02 are.
I haven’t noticed problems with YUDEN000 T03 and YUDEN000 T02, at least the TY DVDs I used were just as well bonded as MCC 004 were. :iagree:

I hope this long, messy post (although I didn’t want to make it as long and messy as it is now) has helped to clear some things up :slight_smile:
If it didn’t, just tell me what went wrong :wink:

I have got rid of almost all of them, and backed up the data again on Verbatim and [B]That’s.[/B]

Do you mean That’s DVD media? :eek:

Of course. The real deal :clap:

I can’t believe you only just realised Evilboy has this huge That’s stash…:bigsmile:

Hmm - fancy sending me some? :stuck_out_tongue:


How are the Infiniti DL’s coling along, Arachne? :bigsmile:


OT: :eek:

I have TTH02 made by MBI here. Wonder how they’ll hold up in awhile…

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Bin em :wink:

Haha, the Litey did slightly better, and of course I haven’t tried my LG yet. The burns complete though, they don’t fail (so far), so I can still use them :wink:

Bin em :wink:

Yeah, those TTH02’s don’t burn amazingly well LOL :wink:

Wonder how my 1655 would do? :o

Gotta be better than my 1640, which only supported them @ 2.4x LOL :eek:

I believe the bonding issue affects both -R and +R TYs - I have done an experiment with many different batches of discs I have here ranging from memorex, maxell, fuji, even princo, and all were bonded tightly together and could not break them apart, only the Taiyo Yuden ones were EASILY broken apart, using either the tip of a scisor to even your finger nail to a key and slightly pushing on the edge and both plastics would come apart, a little pull and they tear apart - I’ve almost broken my fingers trying on the other discs and could not, they were well bonded together. Taiyo Yuden’s quality control has gone down by a BIG margin - Like I said I order in volume and recently I noticed a very comfortable price drop, I was wondering why, and ever since prices dropped I have noticed it get much much worse. uneven edge (glue), dye defects, DUST, ten times higher error rate, to name a few, and they are all genuine.

[B]Ritek [/B]has build its very temporary reputation because G04 and G05 are / have been extremely compatible discs. That’s hardly a history of good manufacturing as a whole, that’s just two apparently outstanding products, that after a short period started having hidden hideous flaws as we should all know by now.

That’s very different than the [B]TDK [/B]long history of excellent media, dating back to the 70’s with tapes (reels then cassettes), then CD, DVD, all top-notch quality products until they recently decided to stop in-house manufacturing. Then problems started.

As for Taiyo Yuden, I prefer to keep my mouth shut, too much passion around. :wink: - when people started voting for TYG03 as great archival media before any serious user feeback was available for these discs, I voiced my opinion, and the reactions made me decide to avoid TY debates as much as possible. I think you know what I mean. I’ll just say that I’ll start beeing really disapointed in TY only if their CDR productions drops in quality, as I don’t use much TY DVDR products anyway.

lol - I don’t think that’s necessary if [B]Arachne[/B] just re-checks them after 6-8 months. Not all TTH02 are unstable, as I alreay mentioned in a thread above many users seem to have no particular stability issues with them. “Don’t buy TDK optical media products anymore” is enough advice I guess. :bigsmile:

I can only say for my own TY media that it’s not as bad as you told me.
The 16x media is bonded almost as well as Verbatim MCC 004 is. :iagree:

I’ve had dust with Verbatim and other brands too, too much glue is usually better than no glue at all :wink: if you find any dye defects, which usually does belong into the “materials and workmanship” definition, don’t hesitate to contact your retailer for replacement (and maybe Taiyo Yuden).

What’s your error rate limit like? Every PIF max < 1000 is ok for me. I’m not like the scan-overinterpreting “OMG!! 1 PIF too much!! This disc is crap!!” people :wink:

Keep in mind that Ritek (phthalocyanine) CD-R are working very well compared to CD-R from quite a few other manufacturers (like Moser Baer India, for example).

TDK’s 8x DVD media was excellent, and their old deep-blue 12x CD-R were too :sad:
I still have some TTH01 and TDK 002, both Made in Luxembourg :bigsmile:
“Don’t buy TDK optical media products anymore” is too much of an oversimplification (IMO). “Don’t buy TDK optical media products anymore [I]unless you know what you’re buying[/I]” would be better advice, especially as my LG loves the YUDEN000 T03 from TDK, and the CMC CD-R from TDK are ok too.

The c’t test gave TYG03 a rating of “Very Good” for stability.
Any other stability tests around? :flower: