Sustained PIF error

Blank Media
#1

Running 851@832 VS08

I’ve burned about half a dozen RITEKR02 at 4x with my current setup (previously I was using 851@851 GSC2). Each of these burns has resulted in some peculiarities when scanned with KProbe. There seem to be two solid blocks of sustained PIF errors: right at the beginning and a little after half-way through. I’ve heard that even though they are below the critical threshold of PIF<4, solid blocks like this are bad news. On about half of the burns I can visually see a ring where the dye color is different. The color difference only appears after the burn, so as far as I can tell, it’s not bad media (though I am definitely aware Ritek’s reputation).

These discs have a few playback glitches- nothing major, but noticeably more than my ‘true’ 851 burns.

I’m leaning toward thinking the 832 mod is related since I never saw this occur with any burns I did with GSC2. Can anyone think of what might be going on? Anyone see similar results?

Thanks for the feedback.

#2

I think your burns are perfect :slight_smile:

If you go in the DVD media forum you’ll find a guide in which is stated that PIF mustn’t exceed n°32 in large areas if you want to stay in the standards: http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=80545

You can watch also some graphs there.

I think you don’t have to worry :slight_smile:

You are burning PERFECT DVDs :smiley:

#3

if the dvds are perfect then why do they skip? Ur gonna say the player sucks? I’ll bet it plays original dvds fine, so the problem lies with the burnt media.
That small block of POs does raise some questions. Could be that particular disc had some issues before being burnt. If it wasn’t just that disc, and maybe the mod that caused it, then just go back to 851 for those discs. If going back doesn’t help, maybe its media variation. I had a 25 stack of ritekr03s and only 2 play without freezes in my standalone. I’ve learned to stay away from the damn things with my liteon.

#4

If you check the scans in the post I’ve reported before (the one in DVD media forum) you’ll notice that these PO blocks are quite common but the author of the post doesn’t say that they will give reading problems. So I don’t see where’s the problem.

#5

I’ll bet it plays original dvds fine, so the problem lies with the burnt media.

That’s a huge leap in logic, and incorrect. Many players have difficulty with certain types of DVDR’s and will have skipping or picture breakup which is not related to burn quality. Best thing is to use media that the player likes. Could also be as simple as a spec of dust or a smudge.

There’s certainly nothing wrong with the posted scan.

#6

ok, maybe it is a huge leap in logic. I only say that because of my own experience. I’ve had various types of top notch discs (verbatim and datasafe + and - included) some which play perfect on my standalone, and some which don’t. The disks in question have super kprobes. The problem cropped up with the ricohjpnr01 and g04s first. So I left those and started using verbatim as the first 4 I tried worked no probs. After that though, there have been a few verbs that skipped.
When switching to verbatim, I was thinking that that maybe the player prefered that dye, however, I have about 50 of the ‘same brand, batch burned with the same drive’ media which work perfectly. So could it really be media that’s causing it? Fired up kprobe, all of em looking good. The kprobes on the MCC were actually worse than that of the ricohjpnr01 pointing me again towards possible dye preference by the player. Being fed up with the inconsistency, I went and got an NEC - no problems. Tried out some previous problematic media… similar kprobes on the new drive, no skipping problems.
I’m saying all this as some form of backative for my thinking that there’s more to a good burn than good looking PI/POs. I’ve posted in the liteon forum already asking gurus if there are any other or further tests possibly even within kprobe itself which can give a better indication of all around goodness.
I was thinking of changing my cheap player, but since the PS2 (which can usually reads anything) choked on those discs as well, it must have been the discs - irrespective of the kprobes. It can’t be dye preference as discs from the same batch, all with good looking kprobes perform differently in the player depending on what burnt it. To further try and prove it can’t be dye preference is that if the player flat out didn’t like the dye, it would probably not play it at all rather than play a high percentage and then start to stutter.
In light of all that, I concluded to myself that there’s more to this than kprobes, and the only true test is if it will play. After all, if a disc is TRULY in spec, then the player will play it.
I’m not trying to show any confrontation or defiance to ur opinion, as its well respected. I’m just explaining my opinion and asking ur thoughts on it now. If there’s something I’m missing, I’d appreciate if u’d fill me in and clear my head.
Thanks

#7

After all, if a disc is TRULY in spec, then the player will play it.

Also an innacurate statement. Compatability issues can be affected by burn quality or other burn-related issues, but the problem is in the player itself.
Players are rarely, if ever, in compliance with specs and standards, and whether a disc plays well has more to do with pure chance than with burn quality. That said, it’s also true that poor burn quality will cause increased playback issues. But it certainly does not follow that playback issues must be due to burn issues.

#8

u mention compatibility, but don’t ignore that the discs have been playing fine until a particular point. if the disc is incompatible, then wouldn’t the player say ‘no disc’ or something to that effect? If it starts to read then wouldn’t that mean it can handle it but there’s something afoot with the particular point it sticks at. If it keeps sticking at the same point, as opposed to random points, wouldn’t that indicate that there’s something constant about the error/problem that occurs? I’d think that if the error point keeps changing, then its the laser/decoder mechanism in the player that’s acting up. A single point would more point towards the disc I think.
Even if the players are ‘rarely, if ever, in compliance with specs and standards’ as u say, if they play pressed discs, then the machine is capable. If it messes up on the burned discs, it would mean that the discs aren’t like pressed discs enuff. U say its mostly chance, well… if so, my NEC is much luckier than my liteon, and kprobe doesn’t seem to show that luckiness on the graphs. This is why I think there is something else afoot, apart from just PI POs.

#9

if the disc is incompatible, then wouldn’t the player say ‘no disc’ or something to that effect?

Not necessarily.

It’s about reflectivity. The fact that a player is able to recognize and play a recordable disc does not mean that the laser is adequate for reading them. Player compatability is strictly trial and error. There are many variable factors, and there’s no predicting how it will work out.

#10

OK, won’t keep keeping u on the topic, I jus wanna make sure I get it right.
It’s about reflectivity? I can feel that… that’s why my cheap standalone doesn’t play +RW (I think).
But on the same reflectivity issue, I don’t know what the units of reflectivity are, but shouldn’t reflectivity of discs be in a certain range to be in ‘spec’? If the reflectivity of a pressed disc has a particular value, then if a burnt disc, or any disc for that matter has reflectivity less than that, then its not quite within spec as its not the value a ‘standard’ player was designed to read?
In the above mentioned case, it seems that the reflectivity problem is only for particular sectors, since it plays a lot of it and skips only at certain points. For the reflectivity to be lower there, would it mean that either that spot wasn’t burned properly or the disc had a manufacturing fault there? Its unlikely that the laser is incapable of reading a particular coordinate on a disc, as I think if that was the case it would do that consistently on all discs at the same point.
So if it is the reflectivity, is there any test which can be run to highlight this characteristic? PI/PO tests aren’t showing it.
Agreed, there are many variable factors, but isn’t it fair to say that players are designed to play discs that have particular features, and if one burner has a higher tendency to produce a playable disc on a particular player than another, and all kprobes are ok, that there is something else affecting it?
eg, I think pioneers (A03 and all) used to produce discs which work on picky players that the lite ons would give trouble with, but kprobes being ‘in spec’ on both… and this is with the same media.
So, with this, how can we really just look at the kprobes above, assume the discs are super and lay blame on other objects in the chain? I guess it could even be the burn intensity and the depth of pits or however the dvds work. can’t it be said that the burner may read it very well as it is equipped with a ‘really really good’ laser which can pick up things that ordinary ‘close-to-spec’ designed players won’t?

#11

Hi, i have the same problem.
DVD player Toshiba SD2200 plays DVD+R (booktype DVD-ROM) with some issues.
DVD+R media Verbatim datalife plus
Liteon 812s US0N
For example : PI = 66 - PIF = 2
I will post my results later.
I don´t know what to do…