Spreading the wealth

vbimport

#1

Theoretically, I should benefit from Obama’s plan (this is what I am told, I don’t really know what the plan is though).:confused: I don’t believe it. I fear somehow I will be paying a lot more taxes and because we have employee backed health care, my health care will cost me more. I have read numerous articles that state McCain’s health care plan will be the best all the way around. Any taxes paid will be offset by tax credits for Health care. Will we be better off taxing people more while on the edge of a depression? Are we headed in the right direction? I think all people’s comments are relative as the problem is now worldwide.What do you think?


#2

I can only provide an opinion for the USA’s system but some of what I say is likely applicable to other countries. Taxing period is bad for economic growth. The real rub to what Obama wants to do is that 40% of the people here currently pay no federal income tax. You can’t give a tax cut to someone that doesn’t pay any taxes. You redistribute one person’s income to another in this scenario. This isn’t a good model for a capitalist system. People need to realize that it is the wealthy that generate the businesses and jobs. Did you ever get a paycheck from a poor person? I never have. The government can only tax the wealthy so much before it causes an economic meltdown. Taxing the wealthy does one of three things. It causes them to pass the additional expense to the consumers of the goods and services they provide, their companies go out of business from the heavy tax burden or they pull back on their investments in other companies and possibly take their money out of the country completely. It has been proven time and again that raising taxes reduces tax revenue to the government and lowering taxes does just the opposite.

Why does Obama want to raise taxes then you may ask? Well listen to this and it will give you an answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iivL4c_3pck Obama is a socialist/Marxist at his core. He wants to move us in that direction and, IMO, he believes raising taxes to the point it breaks the back of our economy is the best way to do it.


#3

Just a small question to you guys: Where have you been in the last few months, when your glorious (laissez-faire) capitalist system failed in such a spectacular way, that only state intervention of such magnitude that makes North Korea look like a free trade haven could rescue it?

You had your three decades, the tide has turned. Time to get used to it.


#4

[QUOTE=packetloss;2147369]Just a small question to you guys: Where have you been in the last few months, when your glorious (laissez-faire) capitalist system failed in such a spectacular way, that only state intervention of such magnitude that makes North Korea look like a free trade haven could rescue it?:rolleyes:

You had your three decades, the tide has turned. Time to get used to it.[/QUOTE]:disagree:

Please keep your anti-American opinions to yourself. You are off topic anyway. We were talking about spreading the wealth. Any intelligent opinions in agreement or otherwise are warmly welcome. Nothing worse than jealous wannabees.


#5

[QUOTE=packetloss;2147369]Just a small question to you guys: Where have you been in the last few months, when your glorious (laissez-faire) capitalist system failed in such a spectacular way, that only state intervention of such magnitude that makes North Korea look like a free trade haven could rescue it?

You had your three decades, the tide has turned. Time to get used to it.[/QUOTE]
Not only is your post despicable, and simply spewing venomous hate speech, it is patently absurd.
It is certainly not “state” intervention which will save the day, it is the tax dollars of the hard-working American citizenry.
It is precisely government influence and corruption which has caused the current economic catastrophe, not capitalism.
I don’t see world markets flourishing in the wake of the current U.S. economic debacle. Do you?
The people of the U.S. will clean up this mess and be better for it.

Please point out the outstanding successes of socialism seen on this planet.
While contemplating this, you may want to actually take note of the standard of living and quality of life of the citizenry. Do you know anyone who actually lived under the boot heel of the U.S.S.R.?

Your conclusions are completely ass-backwards.


#6

[QUOTE=maineman;2147436]Not only is your post despicable, and simply spewing venomous hate speech, it is patently absurd.
It is certainly not “state” intervention which will save the day, it is the tax dollars of the hard-working American citizenry.
It is precisely government influence and corruption which has caused the current economic catastrophe, not capitalism.
I don’t see world markets flourishing in the wake of the current U.S. economic debacle. Do you?
The people of the U.S. will clean up this mess and be better for it.

Please point out the outstanding successes of socialism seen on this planet.
While contemplating this, you may want to actually take note of the standard of living and quality of life of the citizenry. Do you know anyone who actually lived under the boot heel of the U.S.S.R.?

You conclusions are completely ass-backwards.[/QUOTE]

Damn powerful post. I wonder if packetlost realizes that his government is doing the same thing. I have complete faith that we will get through this and be better for it no matter who gets elected or who is in power. We are all Americans and ultimately want whats best for us and ultimately the world, as we have proved already. In essence, spreading the wealth is what takes place in this country The mechanisms may be different, but the end result is the same. Trickle down, trickle up, pee down, pee up.:bigsmile:


#7

[QUOTE=packetloss;2147369]Just a small question to you guys: Where have you been in the last few months, when your glorious (laissez-faire) capitalist system failed in such a spectacular way, that only state intervention of such magnitude that makes North Korea look like a free trade haven could rescue it?

You had your three decades, the tide has turned. Time to get used to it.[/QUOTE]

Wow! You claim to be located in Germany. I have much of my ancestry originating from there so I have been around a few immigrant Germans. I know your statements probably don’t represent the average German’s view of the USA. So anything I say in my reply is directed only at you.

Our capitalist system beat Germany twice in the 20th century in two world wars. Then after we beat you that same capitalists system helped rebuild over half of your country to what it is today. It also kept the Soviet Union from running over the western part of Germany for 40-50 years. You should be a little more aware of history and, IMO, a little more appreciative of what others have done for your country. You especially should know the superiority of capitalism over socialism/Marxism as it took the capitalist based West Germany to stave off economic collapse and starvation for East Germany when its government disintegrated. Were you born then, not paying attention or just asleep for a decade?

From what I see Europe isn’t in the best shape either as is Asia. The Euro is falling like a stone against the dollar so I don’t see much economic superiority coming out of your neck of the woods. The USA will be just fine in the long run and it will likely be our economy that leads the world out of a global recession. I have a task for you. Tell me why the dollar is gaining strength when you think the USA is circling the drain? Get back to me on that one.

BTW, the USA has had way more than three decades in the Sun and we will likely have many more to come. That is if we don’t turn socialist in which case you may be right.


#8

First of all, where in God’s name do you see any kind of “anti-Americanism” in that post of mine? Are you guys really that simplistic to equate laissez-faire capitalism with the USA (a concept that was invented over three centuries ago in Britain btw.)? Is that some kind of paranoia, some kind of intellectual post-traumatic stress syndrome to impute ‘anti-Americanism’ to anyone who dares to question the status quo? ‘Hate speech’? You’ve got to be kidding me. The hysteric reactions are really baffling, and they say a lot more about you than me I’m afraid.

Time to smell the coffee guys, we had the same nonsense going on over here for decades, and now the same ridiculous state intervention (yes, state intervention, quasi-nationalising the financial sector is nothing else but (pretty radical) state intervention, and the state always spends tax payer’s money, that is a given… duh) to save the rotten financial system.

For three decades, the free market ideologists dominated the economic debates, and political landscape in every major capitalist society, including the oh-so “socialist” European countries. They lobbied for less regulation, less state, more free trade, more laissez-faire, and got exactly what they wanted. Never in the history of mankind was capital so mobile, the trade barriers so low, the globalised economy less regulated and controlled. The result was out-of-control greed that would have lead to a total collapse of the world’s financial markets if the governments of the major economies would not have intervened. That’s a fact.

The same people who always lobbied for less regulation and state influence were those who asked the state to save their greedy arses now. Hypocrisy at its best. And yes, it’s a intellectual and moral confession of failure that the tax payer, middle class families who find it more and more difficult to make ends meet these days, have to pay for this mess now. The economic climate that actually has made it so difficult for the average households these days was created by the same people who ask them to save their rotten companies, while they pay themselves billions in bonuses for the great job they have done.

Laissez-faire capitalism is in a huge crisis, everyone can see that, but you have the cheek to ask for even less regulation after the huge disaster we are just witnessing. That’s like Soviet Communist Party asking for a new Lenninist revolution in 1989.

P.S.: UTR, spare me your pseudo-scientific historic lesson, it is totally off-topic anyway.


#9

McCain’s camp always try to attack Obama’s tax plan by linking it to socialist view.

Obama’s camp tried to defend that all the time that the wealthiest taxpayers will see a rise.

The campaign, the media and blogs stirred everything up around.
The real problem is, do you know which candidate’s plan we can believe?
Which media outlet and blogs that describe their analysis we can trust?
Can the President raise or lower tax?
Will Congress approve it?
Do you have the knowledge to understand all these issues about tax and its relation to economy? :stuck_out_tongue:


#10

[QUOTE=packetloss;2147490]
P.S.: UTR, spare me your pseudo-scientific historic lesson, it is totally off-topic anyway.[/QUOTE]

On the contrary, it is very on topic in regard to your comments. You are attacking the very capitalism that has saved Germany from destitution. The proof against what you claim is right their in your own back yard. You can choose to ignore it but I do not.


#11

West Germany’s capitalist system after WW2 was anything but ‘laissez-faire’, but a social market economy with a strong emphasis on the Welfare State, which lead to an economic boom almost unparalleled. If you were really knowledgeable on this issue, there is no way that you could not know this.


#12

Obamanation wants to spend close to 1 trillion, which there’s no way he can get by tax cuts but by only massive tax hikes. Even if you don’t believe that number nor that he won’t raise taxes, the “Joe the Plumber” question was a perfect one that illustrates NObama’s hair-brained socialist agenda of that “it’s not that I want to punish your success, but I want to make sure the guys behind you have an equal chance at success.” Baloney–that’s the same pop-psychology self-esteem movement that started in American Deducation in the early 1990s, something Thomas Sowell documents only about 100 ways in his book “Inside American Education.” The moral is when you change the motivational factors to external (rewarding someone without hard work) from internal (having succeeded by hard work because one understands that is best just for the satisfaction of knowing one did well by applying oneself), you’ll get growing #'s of spoiled people that look only for handouts. Actually, the nation is at least in significant part already there–sadly! Look at 2005 with Hurricane Katrina, where a mayor was so dumb he couldn’t and wouldn’t mobilize the buses and city resources he had, because he expected someone else to do it for him. Then the press camped out down there and made it look like a tragedy that was in no way preventable when the largest part of it was preventable starting with proper city and state government oversight. So while there are some that could not help themselves, there are far more that could have but yet wanted the government to do it for them. Flash forward to 2008: you had massive housing, infrastructure and other services obliterated by Hurricane Ike on the Texas Coast, most notably from Beaumont, south to entire region surrounding the Bolivar peninsula and including large chunks of Galveston. And what’s the message of the residents to the press: “get out of here so I CAN CLEAN UP THIS MESS AND HELP MY NEIGHBORS!!”–NOT that “oh wow, I need FEMA in here right now and the Fed gov’t to do all this for me and fix this.” To boot, there’s not even ANY press down there covering the damage ad nauseum no later than maybe 7 days after. There’s a world of difference in the two attitudes.

Regarding laissez-faire: there’s still nothing wrong with the idea and it’s still what the Founding Fathers would have espoused today. The reason why it failed is not because of the system but because of the significant loss of morality by the people–especially those running Fannie Mae and other financial institutions that instead of doing their job to SERVE THE PEOPLE, they thought only of serving THEMSELVES. If you’re looking out for other people’s best interests and understand that is your JOB, then that would have eliminated all these derivative schemes, reselling the mortagages and repackaging them into supposedly ‘high yield A-AAA investment grade bonds’ when they only made them fancy JUNK bonds. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and especially Abraham Lincoln all could have been paraphrased as saying “NO nation can long endure without morality as its centerpiece”: they recognized once that’s gone or largely gone, no system can ‘legislate’ nor force people to think, choose and do the right thing. That is the failing here, is the failing of people to choose to do the proper thing on a large scale. It is the same phenomenon that accounted for the fall of the Roman Empire: when the people thought mostly of their republic and how to benefit it and to help make it prosper, it did so; when the people began started and thinking only in their self-interest, everything started to fall apart–just like has happened here in the U.S. As Abraham Lincoln prophetically said, “No enemy from abroad will be able to destroy us, nor even take a drink from the Mississippi…if destruction be our lot, WE shall be the authors and finishers of it.”

Spreading the wealth is clearly Marxist and has never worked anywhere. Some could argue Cuba has done a lot with few resources, such as having one of the highest literacy rates around…but that’s it. Food is scarce, supplies are scarce, health treatment for the regular folk is barely there…this has been bourne out in multiple documentaries + documentary style movies like “Lo que dejé en la Habana” and “Memorias del subdesarrollo.” Little production, little progress and nothing of note has come out of it. “Spreading the wealth” by putting a knee to the neck of small business (universally acknowledged as supremely vital to job creation) though higher taxes will only force them to cut back and seriously cut hiring. The U.S. has been in a recession strictly based on the job loss data (over 8 months of job cuts) and one of the ways to help promote growth is cutting taxes and making sure hard work is rewarded. There will also have to be a lot of new regulations to limit the damage self-serving, large institutions can do, something that Bush did try to do by sending Snow to the appropriate Congressional committee twice in 2004 and once by sending Greenspan to testify about the serious need of regulating the GSC’s (Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) in 2005. Once a bill was started in that committee to do precisely that, BUT it was voted down by the larger majority of Democrats, with all the Republicans there approving it. McCain even sponsored a similar kind of bill to do the exact same thing in 2006, but it was also killed in its early stages. So this time, some kind of significant regulation will have to also occur, since sadly it’s been proven the vast majority of the likes of those formerly at Bear Sterns and Lehman Bros. can’t be trusted with even $1.

Does the McCain/Palin ticket have all the answers? No…but at least they have got it right on cutting taxes and keeping the incentives there for the nation to have a chance at recovering. “Spreading the wealth” will only serve to bankrupt the U.S.


#13

@packetloss, over here it was the Democratic party under Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi, who did all of the deregulation. My posts was directed toward the politics of the U.S. and the perceived “spread the wealth” mentality. I did not want a debate about socialism/communism vs. capitalism. We all know what is better. Maybe except you. There is a whole range of policies that can be done under a capitalists umbrella, not so with socialism. Let me know when you make it to North Korea. Let me know how that goes.

The deregulation went back to the Clinton days, in case you did’nt know.

“You guys had had your 3 decades”?.. Who were you referring too?


#14

GUY’S
You all are making good points,but if president OBAMA
get’s his way. No matter what he’s saying now to finance
universal health care, spreading the wealth etc… Even if
he says he will only tax the wealtherier earners it won’t
work. The way the tax system works now it works across
the board payroll taxes, fuel taxes, taxes on food and,
other neccessities will go up. So for people who have to
make living on small incomes it will be a great hardship.
Unless he’s able to change the entire tax code?.
ZAP.:(:frowning:



#15

[QUOTE=packetloss;2147508]West Germany’s capitalist system after WW2 was anything but ‘laissez-faire’, but a social market economy with a strong emphasis on the Welfare State, which lead to an economic boom almost unparalleled. If you were really knowledgeable on this issue, there is no way that you could not know this.[/QUOTE]

Then what was East Germany’s system based on? Also, how much of that “boom” was the direct, and indirect, result of economic aid injected by the USA’s capitalist economy? Germany didn’t get this type of aid after WWI and look what happened to them. It paved the way for Hitler to come to power.


#16

Zathros, that’s not just weak, but simply dishonest. You either don’t read my posts, or don’t want to understand them, so you can give me a label. Criticising laissez-faire capitalism does not make me a Kim Jong Il sympathiser. North Korea has so much to do with the socialist ideology as it has with capitalism.

Capitalism is a very old concept, older than socialism btw., which seems to be the taboo word in the States. Want to scare people? Tell them about terrorism and socialism, so you can take away their civil rights, and don’t need to introduce a fair and working health care system, for example. The private health insurance companies will make sure that you’ll get a share of their high profits.

I wonder how long this policy of fear will still work. Not just in America, but everywhere.


#17

Most of the people I know are liberal when it comes to health care and other social issues and conservative when it comes to military and defense.

Be more specific. You overuse of pronouns make your positions harder to understand. You are the one who brought up North Korea. If you do not clarify yourself then you should expect such hyperbole. There is much in capitalism that can be criticized, that is so obvious I cannot see why anyone would argue it. What are you proposing? This topic was about spreading people’s wealth. Individuals wealth. You have not touched on that topic and have been off it in all your replies.


#18

East Germany’s economic system was a Soviet style command economy, which was very ineffective and obsolete. No comparison to the effective and fair social market economy of the early West German years. Don’t even want to mention the oppressive political system in the East.

The so called “Marshall Plan” did help to kick off the completely destroyed German economy after WW2 indeed. But that was in the interest of the US also (West Germany as the bullwark against the “communist” East), and it had nothing to do with laissez-faire, since the policies implemented by the German leaders were anything but “pure” capitalism, as I’ve explained already.

Comparing the situation after WW1 to WW2 makes no sense whatsoever. After WW1, Germany was forced to give up a considerable part of its industry to the French, thanks to the very one-sided and restrictive Versailles treaty. And it was actually a laissez-faire politician named Heinrich Brüning, who most historians today make responsible for the strong economic decline after the 1929 crash. He reduced state spending, while cutting wages and trying to increase exports. Millions of people lost their jobs, the masses became radicalised, and it ended in the takeover by the Nazis in 1933.


#19

It seems obvious to me that the American system of government is not pure capitalism. I am not a capitalist. I just want a system that works. I don’t argue for pure concepts, which do not exist in this or any other reality which I have perceived.


#20

packetloss, no matter how you slice it, Germany owes its current condition to a capitalistic economy. East Germany was much closer to the definition of socialism than West Germany. Which one collapsed and which one put the pieces back together and saved the other? You can’t credit the Marshall Plan without crediting the capitalistic economy that made it possible. Also, comparing WWI to WWII is useful. By your own admission the Marshall Plan was a major help to rebuilding Germany’s economy and had they been given the same assistance after WWI then I would venture to say that WWII would never have occurred.