Solidburn - learning - still not clear

vbimport

#1

sorry to post about this issue again.
I have read hours in this forum with many true answers. Still I am as clever as before. As I have scrapped now 10 or more disks - I need to ask:
Some users state, that each learning burn increases the quality scan.
But how can this be, when SB (Philips) probes each single disk at start and end.
Averaging something in the EEProm would jeopardize the individual probing.
I can imagine that the first disc is learned and the parameter used for unknown media (firmware), when SB is switched off. I see no clear documentation on this issue.
I experienced, that 2 disks are ok, another one scrap and after that on acceptable level again. I hoped to use off my MCC 004 well with SB, but even with burn speed 4x I now and then see somtimes bad surprises.
I scan with Nec4550 - the Philips 1660 currently provides no PIE.

rgds Klaus


#2

MCC004 really really hates slow burning… Anything below 8x turns them into table coasters or bird repelent and 8x is only just acceptable. The sweet spot for them is 12x and no lower.

Solid burn, when enabled, uses a variable power burn on the outside of the disc that is then read back to see at which point the lowst jitta occured. The same occurs on the inner part of the disc and this is then used for the burn. Each subsiquent test uses a smaller power band to narrow the strat down to a finer ammount.

If you turn solidburn off then it uses the strat that is present in the firmware or if its unknown media it uses the default strat.

This has all been discussed on this forum before.


#3

Hi :slight_smile:
Just want to echo qwakrz s’ post & add that Nec drives are not the best scanners around either.


#4

If that’s your experience, then there’s either something very wrong with your MCC 004 media, or there’s something very wrong with your burners firmware!

I can burn MCC 004 in real time speed (½x - 1x) in my standalone recorder (DVR) with very good quality, and I can burn it at 2.4x in my NEC 3500 also with good quality (I did this by accidence).

In my Plextor PX-712 drive I can burn MCC 004 at 6x or 8x with slightly better quality than at 12x which is also very good.


#5

Thanks - this is the answer, which I missed to see before

rgds Klaus


#6

Hi :slight_smile:
In qwakrz s’ defence I believe this has been his experience. But I don’t agree that this means something is wrong with media/burner or f/w. His setup shows the DVDRW used mostly to be external. Hence the pattern of sweet spots may well be different to yours without necessarily any ‘problem’. If you generalise then for most 16x burners (mid budget) then 16x does appear to push just a little too hard. Dropping to 12x will undoubtably improve the situation. Any lower & a combination of drive & f/w will give mixed results. Using my 1640 @ 16x I get the odd anomoly thrown up when using CD/DVDSpeed to measure quality. @ 12x there’s a significant improvement & @ 8x sometimes better sometimes worse than 12x. However with either the 1650 or 1655 16x is marginally better than that of the 1640. Yet when dropped to 12x the improvement is only marginal & @ 8x the trade off makes me want to stick with either 16 or 12x. My Plextors’ can however (like in your case go lower)perform well @ 4x. I haven’t tried lower than this. So qwkrz s’ wording may have left a little to misinterpretation. In general 16x media will tend to give better results @ 12x. If the drive is external (even with good matching of drive/caddy) 12x is prehaps the maximum write speed. @ 8x or lower then the results in my experience vary so much, that I’d only suggest 8x if problems were present & other suggestions like dma,f/w etc had failed to provide a remedy.


#7

In qwakrz post, it doesn’t merely say that 12x is the sweet spot for MCC 004, but that “Anything below 8x turns them into table coasters or bird repelent and 8x is only just acceptable”.

IMHO I was being kind when stating that there must be something wrong with media or firmware, because I might just as well have said that qwakrz comment was pure disinformation, and qwakrz stated it very assertively which makes it even worse!

But I chose to believe that this was in fact what qwakrz experiences!

Since you (zebadee) want to defend this statement, are you then effectively agreeing that MCC 004 is not designed to be written slower than 12x, and if you burn it slower it will only be fit for table coasters or bird repellent? No? I didn’t think so!

Even though we may have different setups, a slow system or external drive doesn’t make it more difficult to get a good burn at slow speed, but it might make it more difficult to get a good burn at high speed. So that doesn’t explain poor burns at slow speed. :disagree:

So the remaining explanations are: 1. I only get very good media and burners (not likely), or 2. qwakrz had some bad MCC 004 media, or 3. qwakrz’s burner has firmware that is not designed properly for slow burns on this media.


#8

Hi :slight_smile:
DrageMester, I feel it’s probably relative in terms of what you expect. I find it interesting what Plextools rate as the best speed for MCC 004. I know it’s a petty program (like QScan in this respect). But in my system the indication is that this media is borderline 16x media at best. @ 12x it’s seen as good & while I accept that these programs will say the same @8x 6x 4x etc. In my experience while there are gains to be made writing @12x. Lower than this whilst depending on the writer may give good results. There usually (in my case) has been trade offs. PIE/PIF/Jitter all vary. @ 12x these will in the most part show a significant improvement with most drives, @ 8x there may well be some improvement, but in my experience this is not consistant & therefore not really justified. That said in cases with older drives (your Nec 3500) this may be different. @ 4x (the only other speed that I’ve tried) there was a fall in the QS score + rise in PIE/PIF/Jitter.
MCC 004 has a checkered history in terms of quality/consistancy AFAIK. For this very reason as a large part of my stock is MCC004, when using my BenQs’ ,SB is always enabled along with WOPC in an attempt for the best quality/consistancy.
I accept that qwakrz s’ wording was extreme. I have noticed this type of thing from many users on various topics. It seems tha some feel there’s a need to be overt when replying to ‘newbie’ posts to ensure they take notice. Not a line I would take myself.
Retruning to this question of speed, whilst your right in that I would not go so far as the ‘coasters’ comment. I do believe that there’s a ‘sweet’ spot. For me in my experience that is 12x in most cases with most DVDRWs that I’ve come across. That said I find that both the 1650 & 1655 (with SB/WOPC enabled) seem best left @16x.


#9

And with “that said” zebadee and DrageMester, it’s once more proved there isn’t a “sweet spot”/burn speed on any burner for MCC-004 (or any other) media.
Different drives/ different firmwares/ different laser power calibration/ different…you name it. :wink:

To me it looks more like the new “16x burners” (in general) with 16x rated media are purly designed/calibrated for slow, say 2.4/4/6/8x burns.

But all this ofcourse off topic… :slight_smile:


#10

Hi :slight_smile:
My recent experiences with the the 1650 & 1655 from BenQ, leave me with the opposite opinion. Hence both these drives do all their writing @ 16x. Whether using Nero or CloneDVD2. The 760 from Plextor is giving me a similar impression. In fact the lowest speed supported by the BenQs’ is 4x & 6x for the Plextor.


#11

I think you both mean the same thing, but that you’re misunderstanding each other due to a typing error.

I think pinto2 meant to type “poorly”, and zebadee read it as “purely”.

I don’t think all 16x burners are bad at slow burning. I’m betting that Plextors will do OK when burning slowly, although I’m basing this on my PX-712 which is only a 12x burner. But I do think that very little or no testing is done with high speed media burned at low speed in most of the newest burners.

Back to something more on-topic:

When the BenQ’s (1655) SolidBurn feature has learned 6 different media, which I believe is the maximum, will it then start throwing out one of these six if you try to use SolidBurn for a new (7th) media type? Or is it necessary to manually delete all learned media?


#12

AFAIK, it’ll throw out the oldest… first in, first out. But I’ve never had more than 3 slots taken up so I can’t say for sure.


#13

Yes, that’s what I read in another thread some time ago,
although I’ve never had to worry about that, as I use
MCC 003 (Verbatim) almost exclusively. :slight_smile:


#14

maybe see my post “Philips 1660 experience”:
after using SB a while with MCC 004, all my 16x burns are excellent.
Currently I leave it at this speed - I lost too much time and disks, while permanently changing the parameters and maybe also by resetting the eeprom.