Solid Burn and "Known" media

hi,
got a question about Solid Burn. I apologize if this has been answered before…i read
around and did not see one…surprised me as i would think this is something most people would
want to know.

How does Solid Burn work with “Known” media?
it is obvious with “unknown” media (known/unknown Solid Burn selected in qsuite) where it would start with a default writing strategy
and do a test write and evaluate it, adjusting the strategy as more discs are burned.
But what about “Known” media? what is the inital strategy the first time the fw sees it should
do Solid Brun for “known” media and it does not find this media in the “learned” table.
Does it start with a default strategy or does it start with the “known” strategy and learn from there?

if it starts with the default strategy, then unless you have a crappy batch, it will be a few
discs before you approximate the already “known” stratgy, which ought to be pretty good as it is generated in lab conditions.

if it starts with the “known” strategy, then you are likley to begin improving on that (already good) startegy
as you learn for the “known” media.

I have not seen anything from benq that explains what is going on. Telling me it tests before burning
is not enough. what does it test with in the case of “known” media when Soild Brun is in use for “known”.

as an aside, assuming i am not completely misunderstanding Solid Burn, it might be nice if the fw
had a switch as to which seed to use the first time a “known” media is “learned”…ie select
between default strategy or “known media” strategy. This would allow (via qsuite) the user to deal with
a bad spindle or a good spindle for optimal results.

so, what does Solid Burn use for an initial strategy when learning for “known” media?

thanks, phil
1640 owner

bump…over 100 views…nobody knows?
phil

AFAIK, if SB is on for known media, it is still considered a ‘learning’ burn, and while in theory only needs one time to ‘learn’ the media, I’ve seen PIE/PIF and Jitter values usually improve on up to 3 successive burns. Leaving SB on even for ‘known’ media usually helps to keep jitter lower (on certain f/w better than others, with the best I’ve tested and found for me is BSLB).

thanks Quema34,
so do you think when using SB to learn “known” discs, it ignores what it
previously knew? i have read, as you state, that learning improves with
a few burns. this leads me to believe it really does start with a default
strategy (ignoring what it knew) and over time builds a strategy specific
to the learned discs, which one would hope was very close to, if not the
same as, the “known” strategy.
Assuming you have a non-defective spindle, this method essentially wastes
a few burns to get to what it already knew in the first place. :eek:

speculation right now, but your post is strengthening my suspicion that,
unless you have a crappy spindle, you are not going to gain anything
by using SB for “known” discs. just the opposite: you’ll get a few less
than optimal burns while it is learning. this is all assuming the “known”
strategy is worthwhile, ie. accurate. if not, then learning would be the
way to go regardless of what it seeds the process with.

are people finding learned strategies are performing better than “known”
strategies for “known” discs? has anyone made that comparison?
i bet alot of people are just turning it on without really knowing what is
going on (like me). any benq fw innards folks in here?

phil
ps. i’m sticking with BSLB on 1640 for now too.

two, Hi :slight_smile:
cougar97201, the answers to your questions are already out there. This could be why your getting little response. Try taking a look at the following.
One, three, finally though there’s much more available try looking at QSuite 2.1 manual.

thanks zebadee,
Those links ABSOLUTELY DO NOT address the question i am asking.
Unsupported (unknown) media is a no brainer. the question is about
using SB for supported (known) media and is there any advantage to
using it over what is already in the write strategy table for that known media.
Notice the fw (as delivered from benq) has SB for supported (known) media ticked OFF! why? it is obvious why it is ticked ON for unknown media.

what happens when you turn it on…does it start from scratch or does
it try to imporve from the “known” strategy and does it actually improve anything. Qsuite manual, and the other links, while informative, only address
what happens for unknwon media.

if its out there, i have not seen it yet.
if you run across something that describes what happens when you turn on SB for known media, please
post away. apolgies if it really is out there and i have not seen it, but the links provided ain’t got it. i doubt i am the first to ponder this…each person
tciking the SB ON for supported (known) media in qusuite ought to have asked
this question of themselves. (at least the engineers among us ought to have, others are excused and probably successfully burning away :slight_smile: )
phil

what’s the diff? Just try burning with it on and off and use whichever gives you better results. i don’t know the answer but I do know I get better quality scans when I leave it on for everything.

i agree trying and seeing solves the problem for my burner (and considering
the variation between drives of the same model, that may be
the only practical answer) but the “diff” is “understanding” the feature
and “not understanding” the feature and why it is there and why it is
selected OFF as fw is delivered from BENQ…they might know something :slight_smile:
phil

this is the way i see it if this addresses your question. Known media already has its write strats within the firmware. Writing the strat for known media for each and every burner differs.

If you turn on solidburn for known media, you will learn how to burn it based on your drive specifically.

The known write strat is done in labs and the actual outcome will differ per drive with the same exact write start they tested in the labs. So actually turning known media to USE solidburn can give you a better write strat based on your drives ability only.

that clear it up?

thanks skudz,
that makes sense and accounts for variation in drives as i mentioned before.
however, i just tested. burning with SB on (FOR ME) yielded more jitter than with it
off for this known media.

here are the reasons i am leaving it off, YMMV:

  1. Benq ships the firmware with it off, if it was beneficial i would think it would be on.
  2. I have seen no info from Benq on this subject (SB for known media) to refute 1.
  3. My testing showed i get better results keeping it off.
  4. Noone has offered anything other than speculation (including myself) as to what SB does for known media (seed strategy etc.)

it might be interesting if those that run with SB on for known media turn it off for a burn and compare
the results. remember, everything the fw does with SB is an approximation of perfection and it is likely
the lab had a better handle on generating that approximation (better tools
than fw and cd speed scans), but as stated before, it can not account
for variations between individual drives and discs. so, until someone that really knows makes a recommendation
(a BENQ fw engineer) all we can do is test and offer results with the caveat YMMV, unless a clear trend develops.

assuming a benefit from turning a feature on, that is by default off, is not wise in my opinion. Benq had a reason for leaving it off (i hope). in the absense of any advice from BENQ, testing is necessary. if testing shows a benefit, then so be it.

here’s my results: diff was about .5% to 1% MORE jitter with SB on for known media. (marginally significant?)

Note:
with SB on, it is 3rd disc i burned this way so it is not the first “learn” for this media.
the content burned was different for these two…guilty of apples and oranges…but should
not affect jitter across the entire disc. iam not reading anything into the diff between 97 and 99 scores.

1st: SB on for “suported” Yuden000 T02 (wopc on, overspeed off) burned 4x, scanned 8x.

2nd: SB off for “supported” Yuden000 T02 (wopc on, overspeed off) burned 4x, scanned 8x.



im not too sure what u mean than if that didn’t answer the question.

When SB is turned on for Known media, that Known Media becomes unknown. The drive will then learn how to burn on that disc the best it can.

I’m not too sure you know what you are asking, heh.

reread the previous posts carefully.
if you really know what the fw is doing then please say so,
everyting else is speculation, including my own speculation.
i’m done with this til i see something that convinces me benq made
a mistake leaving that feature ticked OFF and better results can be
had turning it on.

…which will not end up being the labs firmware tests results.

You don’t seem to understand that results depend on each burner. Not all them have the same exact jitter and wopc drops and such.

You are confusing yourself.

Solidburn isn’t turned on by default for known media so that should tell you something since you are not satisfied with SB on for known.

I had a tub of some fake YUDEN000 T02 discs. Out of the 4 burners I have: Pioneer 109, BQ 1640, NEC 3520A, LG4163B, the resultant burns all turned out the same when scanned with huge PI/PIF counts and 0 quality score.

Clearly, the YUDEN000 T02 writing strategy in the firmware of all drives was just too different to what the cheap/fake media actually needed to be burned with acceptable results.

If I turned Solid Burn on for known media then the resultant scans of media burned with SB on took a dramatic change for the better with results around the mid 80’s to low 90’s with much lower (almost acceptable PIF counts)

This would seem to indicate to me at least that turning SB on for known media makes the drive totally ignore the specific media writing strategy associated with the MID on disc. Perhaps at best it is using the generic strategy for unknown media and building on that?

Enabling SolidBurn for known media will override its writing strategy.

Philips Introduces Solidburn.pdf (it’s already in zebadee’s link above)

Why SolidBurn?

Every disc sold has unique parameters. Mostly, these parameters are almost identical, but sometimes, there are better and less good or even bad discs.
Normal drives will always use the same writing strategy, no matter if the disc inserted is a good or a less good one. SolidBurn will adapt its writing strategy for each disc.

Normal drives who encounter a disc they do not know, will use a default writing strategy, which is mostly not the best one. To guarantee better performance on unknown discs, regular firmware upgrades are required. SolidBurn makes no difference between known and unknown discs and will always choose the best writing strategy for each disc.

[left][/left]

This forum can be a bit tempermental at times, especially if the subject has been discussed at great length, if no one really knows the answer or they are having their period.

As far as SolidBurn :

  1. Turning SB ON for KNOWN media will cause the firmware’s known media write strategy to be ignored and a small amount of data will be written to the disc and evaluated and a fresh write strategy for the entire disc will be locked in. (Any further fine tuning will be handled by WOPC.)

  2. Some people notice an incremental improvement of Quality Scans with subsequent disks. Most people state that some sort of steady state is reached within 3-4 burns. This observation has occured with both high quality media, such as Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim, and with crappy media.

  3. Some people notice a worsening of Quality Scans with SB ON for KNOWN media as compared to when SB is OFF. This seems to occurs primarily (only?) with high quality media.

  4. Some people state that turning ON OVERSPEED helps with improving Quality Scans even when burning at or below the rated speed of the disk, ie not overspeeding the disk.

  5. Some people state that turning ON OVERSPEED makes no difference with improving Quality Scans but still leave OS ON even when burning at or below the rated speed of the disk, ie not overspeeding the disk.

  6. It has been postulated that SB works every time a disk is burned by keeping a record for that media ID and adjusting incrementally a certain parameter(s) (don’t recall what exactly) by comparing the new disk’s write strategy testing (before actually burning the entire disk) with SB’s stored data from previous burns. This is an explanation (hypothetical?) on why QSuite saves media information in the EEPROM: if SB approached each disk anew then there would be no reason to save any data from previous SB disk burns.

  7. Some people have better results swapping the known write strategy for a specific MID by using the MediaCodeSpeedEdit (MCSE) tool that can be found as a sticky thread in the forum. An example is with Taiyo Yuden 8X DVD+R T02 --> T03 write strategy.

  8. Some people have better or more consistent results with a particular firmware, with or without SB. The EEPROM allows you to flash forward and back, giving you the ability to try different firmware revisions to your heart’s content. Some believe that you can do a straight flash backwards, some believe you need to reflash more than once to clear out the cobwebs so to speak, some think the .cvt works better than the .exe for flashing, and some think you need a specific sequence of flashing with pre-SolidBurn firmware before eventually flashing with the desired firmware. A search will turn up lots of chatter on this topic.

  9. No two optical disk drives are alike. Your results may vary greatly from others. Use the experiences of others to guide your choices but experiment on your own to find what works best for you.

  10. It may be that no one on this forum knows what really happens with SB, so no real answers will ever be forthcoming. Nearly everything I have stated is based on empirical evidence as presented by other CDFreaks.

  11. Have fun!

hi, i thought i was done with this but these are great posts so,
not to beat a dead horse, a few comments, hopefully helpful:

AlreadyTaken: yeah, the fakes fall into “crappy7” category and overriding
the known strategy for the MID is exteremely useful as avoids dinging the
strategy table for that MID via MediaSpeedCodeEdit.

As far as completely ignoring, would you know if it started with the known
strategy as a “seed” and tested the leads until it found an acceptable
strategy for that particular disc? If i were implementing SB for “known” that
is the way i’d start, giving higher priority to adjusting for a real MID rather than a fake MID…but depending on how good the strategy search is, results
might be the same or close. but like you, my guess is “Perhaps at best it is using the generic strategy for unknown media and building on that?” that
is likely what it is doing which might not be the best thing for a real disc
that has no issues and therefore might recieve a strategy less
than the already known strategy.

Zevia: “Enabling SolidBurn for known media will override its writing strategy.”
but how? what is the seed…and is it intended to generate a superior
strategy or just get us past a crappy or fake set of discs. not enough info
in that doc. when it says it makes “makes no difference between known and unknown discs” the context is a little funny, but reading it critically i THINK
it is saying it starts with a deafult “seed”, which was one of my questions.
at least that seems to be what it is saying and what most people are assuming here. that makes me wonder if that is really the right thing to do
for a disc with no issues (real etc).
maybe not…maybe that is why that feature is ticked OFF as delivered by BENQ. lotta maybes but some symetry emerging.

Bulletx: "This forum can be a bit tempermental at times, especially if the subject has been discussed at great length, if no one really knows the answer or they are having their period. "
yep, all but one poster has been helpful, and even he started out helpful, i think, but was missing the real question and frustration on both sides ensued… it even occured to me there might be a language barrier,
gotta remember this forum has international participation and unfortunately
i only know english. i asked for previous
discusions but found none and was directed to none, as far as i know
the “known” SB algoritm has not been discussed…thought this would
be a good place to start it or get directed off to the appropriate place.
I still feel that way, and truly appreciate the useful posts and time
it takes to consider this stuff. I’m not posting for me, rather for everyone reading it and hoped most posters would understand that. most did.

Really great points, but in particular:

“3) Some people notice a worsening of Quality Scans with SB ON for KNOWN media as compared to when SB is OFF. This seems to occurs primarily (only?) with high quality media.”

AHA, just what i observed…that was the BIG question…is running blindly with
SB on for “good” known media the right thing to do…AHA. AHA. This seems
a very important piece of information…from reading around i think alot of people are assuming
it is better to run with it on, but that may not always be the case. AHA!!

“10) It may be that no one on this forum knows what really happens with SB, so no real answers will ever be forthcoming. Nearly everything I have stated is based on empirical evidence as presented by other CDFreaks.”

Looking that way but very intelligent conclusions are being drawn. I was
hoping there was a Benq fw person in here that might know for sure. Anyone
disassemble the fw and taken a look at it?

  1. Have fun!
    I am!! great post, thanks.

@Zebadee: I know you are way more knowledgeable than I am about this but I have made an observation. I have Solid burn for known media and overspeeding capabilities in CD-DVD Speed, so I have tryed an experiment. I uninstalled QSuite 2.1 but before I did I flashed back to a firmware BSHB that did not use QSuite 2.1 and then flashed back to BSLB which I use. I did not reinstall QSuite. I used the Solid burn function and overspeed function in CD-DVD Speed. I found that for some unknown reason to me the discs learned much faster and after the drives learned the media I was using I changed the setting to SB enabled just for unknown media. My drive now burns almost every disc on a much more consistant basis, this may be my imagination but maybe someone else could try it also. Again, this is just my experience.

Hi :slight_smile:
alan1476, this has been my experience too. Hence despite any factual theory to explain why, I posted in the BSOB thread a suggestion that folks not getting the expected results could try this (flashing to any pre SB/OS f/w then to SB/OS recognised f/w). Also pointed out that learning appeared to ‘speed up’. I have found that having SB & WOPC enabled for both known/unknown media gives greater consistancy in results. I think people looking at this thread might want to take a look at the BSOB thread.
The answers to all queries in this post are already out there.
SolidBurn when enabled for known media initially takes the default strat for that media (after this the strat in the learned memory is the start point) & does a series of test writes at the beginning & end of the disc. Both BenQ/Philips state that this is done in the leadin/leadout areas, but as pinto2 found out. Whilst true for leadin area, the second area is past the leadout zone. After each write test the disc is examined for jitter. If necessary then a 2nd or even 3rd test is done. Test 2 would be say - the original strat point, test 3 +. Each & every disc under goes this testing, though the number of max tests for each disc is limited, the minimum can vary. If for example the 1st test gives the desired result.
Media variation (storage/top/middle/bottom of tub)can explain why results differ, as well as different temps,system configurations etc.
The real answer for anyone is to try it & see what works for them.

Well, i’ll add my experiences with SB

MMC 004 - Very good media with good leadin & leadout areas. Media performs very well with SB enabled for known media, reduced PIF’s (PIE’s slightly elevated but nothing major and the PIF’s are lower which is the main point).

CMC E01 - Good media but some have high errors in the leadout. Media hates SB as the leadout area cannot be tested, increased PIE and PIF errors but still lower than fake media. Performs best using built in strat. - Some discs actually work very well with SB but the failure rate of SB to get a good strat is to high to rely on it.

I know a few people hate Qscan but I think that if you scan a disc and it has a high FE/TE rate at the end of the disc then SB may have problems working out a strat for the disc be it known or unknown.