Ripping a Dual Layer copy: - odd layer break issue (please help)

I am experiencing an interesting and challenging problem making a copy of a DVD+R dual layer disc, which itself is a backup of a commercial DVD. This problem is random in nature, some backup discs will copy just fine, others will not. I have read a few similar posts on this issue but none of the solutions presented have worked for me. This is a long and detailed post. The details are as follows:

I decided to make backup copies of the DVD miniseries North and South, and of the 13 episode series Cosmos by Carl Sagan. I have a Pioneer A09 dual layer burner with its latest firmware 1.58.

  1. I used Smartripper 2.41 to rip all the files from each original DVD to its own folder on my 160 GB hard drive. The only Smartripper setting used was to remove Macrovision. I did this for all 7 Cosmos DVDs, and for all 8 North and South DVDs.

  2. After I ripped each commercial DVD to its folder, I then opened the DVD in the folder with PowerDVD and also with DVD Shrink 3.2 to verify the quality of the rip. I used PowerDVD to check the basic menu operations and played random scenes just to be confident the rip was good. After completing all the rips, I have sent these two DVD series around to the extended family for them to enjoy. They will not be back in my hands for quite some time.

  3. I began the process of making my backup copies of each DVD from its stored folder. I used the Ulead software that came with the Pioneer burner to make the copy onto a Memorex DVD+R DL disc. I burned the first 4 DVDs of the Cosmos series in this fashion without incident and tested each one in my home theater DVD player. Each one works flawlessly.

  4. Because this is my first time doing dual layer burning, I decided to go a step further and make sure I could make a copy of the copy. One by one, I tried ripping each of the 4 DVD+R DL discs and noticed that some of them would rip and some error’d out about half way through the rip process.

  5. I then focused on trying different methods to rip the problem DVD+R DL discs. I tried Smartripper 2.41, DVDClad 2.0, DVD Shrink 3.2, DVD Decripter, ImgToolBurn, and even just using Windows Explorer. Every method failed in its own way near the halfway point. I began to suspect there was some issue with the layer break.

  6. I then read every post I could find on dual layer issues. I suspected that, because I had ripped each original commercial DVD with SmartRipper using the copy file method, and not altering the files - perhaps the original layer break information was being persisted and somehow causing the subsequent copy of a copy issue.

  7. To eliminate this possibility, before I burned the contents of the (stored) DVD folder, I first opened the DVD folder up with DVDShrink 3.2 and made a Backup of the DVD with DVDShrink’s “Remove Layer Break” setting checked ON. I also used DVDShrink’s other default settings regarding removing prohibited user operations and such.

  8. I then tried burning the remaining discs of the Cosmos series, and ones from the North and South series by first using the DVDShrink backup method in Step #7 and trying different burning software including Roxio 7, Nero Platinum 7, ImgToolBurn and ImgBurn. I tried combinations of using and not using the DVDShrink backup method in Step #7. I even tried combinations of with and without first making a disc image of the DVD folder. Every disc burned successfully and every disc plays find in my stand-alone player, no matter what it was burned with. But I found there was still the random problem when trying to rip some of the (copied) DVD+R DL discs, some will rip OK and others will not. I even find this pattern within a particular burning method and process, meaning some discs will rip OK after being burned with Nero, some will not. Some will rip OK after being burned with Roxio, some will not.

  9. I now feel confident that this problem has nothing to do with which burning software used, or whether or not a disc image is first produced. The last thing I tried was using the latest version of ImgBurn 1.1.1.0, and its method of finding a nice layer break position on a DVD.

  10. I burned one more North and South DVD. After starting the new
    ImgBurn, it produced a layer break setting window with the following two choices:
    (can’t seem to get this table to line up right)

LBA PGC Cel l Time (??)
1839120 1 24 1:34:45 No
1839120 3 2 1:48 No

I chose the first selection offered (Time = 1:34:45) and burned the DVD. The disc produced would not subsequently rip past the halfway point. It plays fine in my player.

  1. I also noticed one more thing. Each disc in the North and South series I have copied has 2 episodes. Each episode is very close to the others in duration, around 95 minutes. When playing all the North And South DVD+R DL discs I have made on my standalone player, they all layer break somewhere close to in the first 2 minute mark of the second episode. I can tell when the layer break happens because there is a slight pause in the playback. I have seen this happen on a few commercial DVDs too so I am not concerned that it happens. I find it odd that the last disc made in Step #10, using ImgBurn’s layer break setting capability, actually layer breaks near the 2 minute mark of the second episode. Recall that in Step #10, I chose the first layer break selection (Time = 1:34:45). I would expect that when the disc is played it would layer break at the 1:34:45 point of the first episode.

One final point: It seems very odd to me that a standalone player would have no trouble reading and using the files on the DVD+R DL discs I have burned, but every ripping product I have used cannot deal with the layer break on some of these discs. It is as though the player gets the layer break info from the .IFO file(s) and knows exactly how to deal with the disc, and the ripping products use some other method.

Thank you for reading this long and detailed post. This issue is driving me nuts and I just cannot let it go. There is an answer somewhere and I am determined to find it. I welcome and appreciate any comments you may have.

I’ve only done 1 backup to a DL DVD & for that I ripped it with DVD Decrypter to an ISO image & then burned it to a Verbatim 2.4 DL DVD+R with Imgburn.

The result was perfect. The copied DVD is rippable & plays perfectly in my DVD player.

Verbatim +R DL media is the only one to use to get decent results.

Hello Honda Bob-

Am having the same problem you have described 5 years ago. Hope you found a solution and I further hope you are still in touch with this forum and that you can share the solution with me.

hopefully,

Jazzmind

[QUOTE=Honda Bob;1258946]I am experiencing an interesting and challenging problem making a copy of a DVD+R dual layer disc, which itself is a backup of a commercial DVD. This problem is random in nature, some backup discs will copy just fine, others will not. I have read a few similar posts on this issue but none of the solutions presented have worked for me. This is a long and detailed post. The details are as follows:

I decided to make backup copies of the DVD miniseries North and South, and of the 13 episode series Cosmos by Carl Sagan. I have a Pioneer A09 dual layer burner with its latest firmware 1.58.

  1. I used Smartripper 2.41 to rip all the files from each original DVD to its own folder on my 160 GB hard drive. The only Smartripper setting used was to remove Macrovision. I did this for all 7 Cosmos DVDs, and for all 8 North and South DVDs.

  2. After I ripped each commercial DVD to its folder, I then opened the DVD in the folder with PowerDVD and also with DVD Shrink 3.2 to verify the quality of the rip. I used PowerDVD to check the basic menu operations and played random scenes just to be confident the rip was good. After completing all the rips, I have sent these two DVD series around to the extended family for them to enjoy. They will not be back in my hands for quite some time.

  3. I began the process of making my backup copies of each DVD from its stored folder. I used the Ulead software that came with the Pioneer burner to make the copy onto a Memorex DVD+R DL disc. I burned the first 4 DVDs of the Cosmos series in this fashion without incident and tested each one in my home theater DVD player. Each one works flawlessly.

  4. Because this is my first time doing dual layer burning, I decided to go a step further and make sure I could make a copy of the copy. One by one, I tried ripping each of the 4 DVD+R DL discs and noticed that some of them would rip and some error’d out about half way through the rip process.

  5. I then focused on trying different methods to rip the problem DVD+R DL discs. I tried Smartripper 2.41, DVDClad 2.0, DVD Shrink 3.2, DVD Decripter, ImgToolBurn, and even just using Windows Explorer. Every method failed in its own way near the halfway point. I began to suspect there was some issue with the layer break.

  6. I then read every post I could find on dual layer issues. I suspected that, because I had ripped each original commercial DVD with SmartRipper using the copy file method, and not altering the files - perhaps the original layer break information was being persisted and somehow causing the subsequent copy of a copy issue.

  7. To eliminate this possibility, before I burned the contents of the (stored) DVD folder, I first opened the DVD folder up with DVDShrink 3.2 and made a Backup of the DVD with DVDShrink’s “Remove Layer Break” setting checked ON. I also used DVDShrink’s other default settings regarding removing prohibited user operations and such.

  8. I then tried burning the remaining discs of the Cosmos series, and ones from the North and South series by first using the DVDShrink backup method in Step #7 and trying different burning software including Roxio 7, Nero Platinum 7, ImgToolBurn and ImgBurn. I tried combinations of using and not using the DVDShrink backup method in Step #7. I even tried combinations of with and without first making a disc image of the DVD folder. Every disc burned successfully and every disc plays find in my stand-alone player, no matter what it was burned with. But I found there was still the random problem when trying to rip some of the (copied) DVD+R DL discs, some will rip OK and others will not. I even find this pattern within a particular burning method and process, meaning some discs will rip OK after being burned with Nero, some will not. Some will rip OK after being burned with Roxio, some will not.

  9. I now feel confident that this problem has nothing to do with which burning software used, or whether or not a disc image is first produced. The last thing I tried was using the latest version of ImgBurn 1.1.1.0, and its method of finding a nice layer break position on a DVD.

  10. I burned one more North and South DVD. After starting the new
    ImgBurn, it produced a layer break setting window with the following two choices:
    (can’t seem to get this table to line up right)

LBA PGC Cel l Time (??)
1839120 1 24 1:34:45 No
1839120 3 2 1:48 No

I chose the first selection offered (Time = 1:34:45) and burned the DVD. The disc produced would not subsequently rip past the halfway point. It plays fine in my player.

  1. I also noticed one more thing. Each disc in the North and South series I have copied has 2 episodes. Each episode is very close to the others in duration, around 95 minutes. When playing all the North And South DVD+R DL discs I have made on my standalone player, they all layer break somewhere close to in the first 2 minute mark of the second episode. I can tell when the layer break happens because there is a slight pause in the playback. I have seen this happen on a few commercial DVDs too so I am not concerned that it happens. I find it odd that the last disc made in Step #10, using ImgBurn’s layer break setting capability, actually layer breaks near the 2 minute mark of the second episode. Recall that in Step #10, I chose the first layer break selection (Time = 1:34:45). I would expect that when the disc is played it would layer break at the 1:34:45 point of the first episode.

One final point: It seems very odd to me that a standalone player would have no trouble reading and using the files on the DVD+R DL discs I have burned, but every ripping product I have used cannot deal with the layer break on some of these discs. It is as though the player gets the layer break info from the .IFO file(s) and knows exactly how to deal with the disc, and the ripping products use some other method.

Thank you for reading this long and detailed post. This issue is driving me nuts and I just cannot let it go. There is an answer somewhere and I am determined to find it. I welcome and appreciate any comments you may have.[/QUOTE]

Honda Bob has not been back since that first post.

Copying a commercial dvd to a blank dual layer dvd is really quite simple. You need to use a good dvd ripping program. I prefer AnyDVD in the background, but you can use DVDFab instead.

Copy the commercial dvd as an ISO file. DVDFab can do this directly. If you do this with AnyDVD, run AnyDVD in the background and use DVDDecrypter to rip to an ISO. Decrypter will also make a very small mds file which contains the layer break information.

Burn the ISO to Verbatim brand DL media (the original poster was using Memorex which is one of the worst choices possible). Use ImgBurn for the burn itself, since ImgBurn will set the layer break correctly. Use the mds file created by DVDDecrypter as the input. Burn at 4x speed.

That should work. I’ve never run into a dvd that wouldn’t work using these methods.

Seeing as Honda Bob only had one post in 2006 I doubt that he’s still here. What are you trying to do exactly? You’re not trying to rip the same disks as Honda Bob and probably aren’t using the same programs. If you just want to make a copy of a DL disk (already decrypted) then I suggest using Imgburn. Just Create Image From Disk and then Write Image to Disk.

[QUOTE=Kerry56;2558145]Honda Bob has not been back since that first post.

Copying a commercial dvd to a blank dual layer dvd is really quite simple. You need to use a good dvd ripping program. I prefer AnyDVD in the background, but you can use DVDFab instead.

Copy the commercial dvd as an ISO file. DVDFab can do this directly. If you do this with AnyDVD, run AnyDVD in the background and use DVDDecrypter to rip to an ISO. Decrypter will also make a very small mds file which contains the layer break information.

Burn the ISO to Verbatim brand DL media (the original poster was using Memorex which is one of the worst choices possible). Use ImgBurn for the burn itself, since ImgBurn will set the layer break correctly. Use the mds file created by DVDDecrypter as the input. Burn at 4x speed.

That should work. I’ve never run into a dvd that wouldn’t work using these methods.[/QUOTE]

Looks like Kerry56 got to it before I could reply, yep he’s 100% right that’s the way I do it, no probs :bigsmile:

I have no problem copying commercial DL DVDs. I have a large number of such copies archived and am now in the process of transferring these archives to hard drives in MKV format. I use MKV format in order to have both multiple audio and multiple subtitles in one place.

I am ripping the archive copies to a hard drive using anyDVD in the background and ripping them with imgBurn, [anyDVD is needed when /I am ripping an original DVD but I think it is not needed when I am ripping an archived copy . I leave it running then too because I think it does no harm] I have also used DVDFab and DVD decrypter and the anyDVD ripping program but find copying with imgBurn to an ISO format with anyDVD in background works well and quickly. I am then using Handbrake to convert to H.264 at Quality 18 with multiple audio tracks on AC3 passthru setting and with multiple subtitles that can be switched off and on. I am pleased with the results I am getting.

I have been lurking around this website for several years and reading the forums for ideas and for second hand advice. I learned how to make my DVD archives from reading here years ago.

The problem that Honda Bob described and that I also have is this: Some of the DVDs I am moving to a HDD I am moving from a dual layer archive COPY- not from the original commercial dual layer disc. I first move a copy of the DVD to the HDD and then I convert it from the HDD using Handbrake. I have done the first step of copying the DVD intact to the hard drive by copying the VIDEO_TS file using Windows Explorer; by DVD Decryptor; by DVDFab; by imgBurn. [Either a VIDEO_TS file or an ISO can be converted by Handbrake.] All these methods work fine for regular single layer copies. But when I try to copy a dual layer archive COPY to the HDD using any of these methods - most fail at about the 50% point of the transfer - an apparent layer break problem. Maybe 15 or 20% of the dual layer copies successfully transfer and the remainder fail. About 3/4 of the failures are at the 50% mark and the rest are before or after that…a few at about 98% [grr]. Single layer copies succeed in transferring to HDD at better than 95%.

[Also Handbrake usually fails to convert them directly. Although this would be much slower- it would still be a solution]

I have no difficulty transferring dual layer originals to a HDD. I hope someone knows a solution that will enable me to transfer from dual layer archive copies to a HDD so I can then convert them using Handbrake.

QUOTE=tubebar;2558157]Looks like Kerry56 got to it before I could reply, yep he’s 100% right that’s the way I do it, no probs :bigsmile:[/QUOTE]

What type of media did you use when making the dual layer copies? If they were not Verbatim, you may have some serious issues getting good copies.

You don’t need a decryption program when ripping these copies to the hard drive, but the most robust program is probably DVDDecrypter. Have you tried increasing the Software Read Error retries in Decrypter?

You can also try a program like ISOBuster to get the information off the disk. The free version of ISOBuster probably doesn’t work for dvd-video however, and you’d have to use the commercial program.

Almost all of the media are Verbatim. I have tried mutiple errors on DVD decrypter and in imgBurn. Will look into ISOBuster.

Thanks

ISOBuster [free version] tried using it to extract VIDEO_TS file and it chugged right along until it hit 50% and then the process failed. Maybe there is a convoluted process to rebuild. But these archives play just fine so it seems there should be way to copy to HDD.

Maybe ulead videostudio would be a chance. Dunno if their latest version still includes VR drivers, but worth a try.

hmm sounds like the DL discs LB may have been burned bad. If the discs are bad you may not be able to do much w/ that. Maybe look into it w/ ISObuster and see if all sectors are readable.

As kerry said tuen off your decryption apps (DVDfab or anyDVD) as they could have false triggers and mess it up, they are only needed for Copy Protected discs.

What are “VR drivers”?

Thanks

[QUOTE=chef;2558931]Maybe ulead videostudio would be a chance. Dunno if their latest version still includes VR drivers, but worth a try.[/QUOTE]

I think VR Drivers are for the VR Disc format, Videostudio supports that. I dunno never messed w/ it personally.

Check this for more info:
http://www.dvdplusrw.org/Article.asp?mid=0&sid=3&aid=12