"Re:Fwd: The Promise Continues"- A letter to my father

This is actually an email I wrote to my father who is overseas in response to a little tidbit that he forwarded to me (something his friend heard on the radio this morning), and upon completing it, I felt compelled to post it somewhere. I don’t know why, but I felt the need to capture some of the emotion of the day and share it, and I think this exchange does just that. As this is the only forum I have visited with any regulartity, I present you all with this snapshot of these particular Americans’ thoughts and invite others to do the same…

"Re: FW: The Promise Continues:

 'Rosa sat so that Martin could walk.  
 Martin walked so that Obama could run. 
 Obama ran so that our kids could fly'

Goosebumps! And who is credited with the creation of this bit of beauty?

This is weird. I feel all shiny and hopeful on election day! This is really something, and it seems to be a common feeling!

The ladies at the polling place actually took my picture… (They got a kick out of the fact that I went on my Roller Blades with my shoes in tow just in case- I pointed out that I couldn’t very well cast my vote for a Greener Earth and justify driving my car 2 blocks over to do so…) I can say that I really enjoyed handing in my ballot, doing a little roller dancing when it sucked into the machine and the little green light came on, and sticking the “I voted” sticker on my forehead (needless to say, the polls were pretty quiet by the time I went or I might have been a little less ebullient.) The phrase “an historic day…” has been repeated by at least a dozen different sources in the last couple hours.

And you know what? I had an insight as I huffed and puffed my way back up the hill (“Boy, I gotta exercise more,” was the actually the first one, but fast on its heels was this) about how come this election went this way, and why it felt different. I do believe it is the INTERNET that made this possible. I forgot to research this weekend like I planned, so today I pored over the sample ballot for several hours, of course, in front of my computer with the arguments for the propositions and the various candidates information literally at my fingertips. I remember thinking as I read each proposition, “Huh?.. but what the fuck does that mean?” and then turning to Google to find out thinking, “Thank GOD for the Internet!” I completely credit the large voter turnout (particularly with the newly eligible young people) to the wide availability of information that the Internet provides.

I was thinking that I felt like a first time voter today, and I realize it was because today I felt for the first time like I had made informed reasonable choices on my ballot - even on those that maybe I didn’t like either choice, I felt a good responsibility in making a conscious decision in the interest of starting the wheels of change turning in the right direction. I think that when I was younger I felt insecure about voting because I didn’t feel like I knew what I was really voting FOR half the time. I didn’t understand all the politics or the economics. Part of the change in this is perhaps due to maturity in that now I trust in my own philosophy and vote accordinly to support that, but alot is also due to fact that I I feel like I had information “straight from the horses mouth” to be better guided to pick what actually fits that philosophy. I could see candidate statements and responses to questionaires in their own words (if they bothered to provide them - and if not, that was also telling…) I could also get information from both sides of an argument as well as investigate the sources of the arguments origination or information. All of this from my bedroom, plus pictures and video and popular (and maybe not so popular) commentary. All in all, I think I felt so good because I could cast my ballot with a clear conscience, and confidence that I was not being misled or duped by politic, and that whatever the outcome, I had taken some action to put things in the way I saw as right. I believe that is precisely what the system was designed to accomplish.

I think much of the energy behind the Obama campaign is fueled just as much by this feeling, if not more so than the man. The man himself may have just been lucky enough to come around when the time was ripe, and whether by destiny or design, he has harnessed that energy into something truly palpable. I heard the same kind of sound in the background of recorded historical speeches from JFK and Martin Luther King’s “I have a Dream…”; he very air seemed alive at his acceptance speech. Mom said it felt like “when the Lakers won” but since I’m not a huge fan of basketball, the nearest thing I can remember having experienced personally was the Dodgers World Series Game after Casey came to bat and even after he rounded home plate the crowd didn’t move. (Actually, now that I think about it, the “Victory” Tour was like that, too, back when Michael was the KING of Pop, but I lacked the sophistication to understand the experience in the same context. Thanks again for those tickets, btw - it was truly great… ) You know, there’s been some pretty amazing shit I’ve gotten to see in this little lifetime of mine… If Armageddon really does come in 2012 as predicted (again) I don’t think I’ll feel to cheated.

I also saw something else a little clearer in the process as well today. A couple weeks ago, I was rousted from my sleep to anwer the doorbell, and was quite put out to discover that it was someone canvassing the neighborhood to gain support for Prop 8. Given that one of my DEAREST friends, who is a representative example of a most excellent person on the whole (edited to protect the innocent:)) would be directly affected by this (and beside the fact that exceptional pause should be taken before voting “yes” on ANY proposition that begins with the words “ELIMINATES RIGHT…”) I was perhaps a little curt when I said “Oh, Goodbye!” and shut the door before he was able to finish his sentence. I considered him lucky that I did not tell him to remove the stick from his nether regions, and pondered how anyone could actually spend a day putting energy into worrying about “the gays” and their personal life enough to try to convince OTHER people to worry about it too. I realize now that if I were truly going to be a proactive thinker, I ought to have heard him out … and then shared my views about why HE ought to vote “No” instead. Then at least my getting out of bed would have been worth the effort, and I might have made a difference without even having to hoof it around the neighborhood. Oh well. Live and learn. (The hard way, at times… it looks like prop 8 is actually a go… Oh poop.)

I am impressed with Obama’s realism today as well. I have been a little concerned that Americans are given to hero worship, and I worry that the fact that he is, after all, still just a man, and maybe not the Champion of Justice and The American Way (insert theme music here) that some make him out to be (and some hope he really is). It was more than moving to see the collection of demographic that turned out for Obama. One of the commentators at NBC spoke of it being a “real representation of the face of America” in its diversity, unlike past representative slices of the pie which only reflected a portion of our society. It had a real “whole” feeling. For whatever its worth, he is definitely inspiring and intelligent, and seems sensible enough, but even more impressive than the powerful air of “together” that crackled like static electricity all througout the crowd, was its subsistence; the unquelled spirit that showed not a sign of diminishing even 15 minutes after he finished speaking and NBC finally cut away anyhow.

Tonight I witnessed something – well, okay, I’ll go ahead and say it like everyone else has today – truly historic. The fact that he is the first (insert politically correct term for “not white” here) Pres. is huge in all kinds of ways, but the real weight of it to me is that I wondered at the start of all this if I would see something like that in my lifetime. It restores my faith in people that I have, and it that part of it that I think is more significant to our future. He speaks in such a manner that I couldn’t help but feel it. His words, even his whole voice, resonate with hope and possibility, and he has sparked a passionate response from a country that had fallen into cynicism and apathy. If he can keep that alive while we roll up our sleeves and set to task, maybe that is all the hero we need…

I think it would be kind of cool to get a sampling of immediate reactions to the results in a collection of conversations - if anyone has written or resonded to anyone else, I would love to see how others were feeling today besides my own inner circle… even if the feeling was completely opposite, I would like to gain some insight from other perspectives. Anyone feel like sharing?

LOL - while I was writing to him, we played e-mail tag again as he responded to the note I had written to him (context: we had spoken yesterday of the pitfalls of daring to hope…)

[I]"[B]8:03 PM - Its Official! 297 ELECTORAL VOTES!!![/B] Tuesday, November 4, 2008


Congrats, President OBAMA!!

Well, whaddaya know about that… Guess Americans aren’t totally brain dead after all… :bigsmile:

Watching the Daily Show/Colbert Report coverage?

COLBERT: “… Well, Bush is still President for two more months…”
:doh:(almost forgot about that part! Now we just have to make to to '09…):rolleyes:[/I]

[B][B]RE: 8:03 PM - Its Official! 297 ELECTORAL VOTES!!![/B][/B]

11/5 (in Japan)


As you said,


Needless to say, there was no work going to get done at the office today…

I was kind of holding my breath much of the morning here, glued to the computer screen, watching the returns roll in minute after each “refreshing” minute on the interactive vote maps. Didn’t really completely exhale until Ohio went blue around the same time that Iowa did. After that it was just fascination with the small margins of victory that turned red states blue (Florida, Virginia, etc.) - small margins, but historically big turnarounds.

I thought about mom and dad, and how they raised us to be human beings without any kind of qualifying adjectives, and I thought that it just might be that times are truly catching up to their wisdom - that Mr. Obama can carry peoples’ minds beyond the need for such qualification; that Mr. King’s dream about judging people on the content of their character is slowly becoming real… They would have been happy to see this day.

I thought that if the rest of the world is like what it seems to be like here in Japan, people the world over are not so much happy for Mr. Obama and his personal triumph as they happy for America and for the world; that, somehow, suddenly a lot of the tension has been removed from the air that we are all breathing; that somehow people around the world will find it easier to work together for a while… “Our stories are singular, but our destiny is shared. A new dawn of American leadership is at hand.”

And then, through the magic of the internet, I watched and heard President-elect Obama’s victory speech. I hung on every word - actually, I think I swayed to their music. I marveled at the melange of beaming faces - the multiple faces of an America enchanted by the moment and enthralled by his words…just like me. I saw young people in awe, middle-aged folks enraptured, and older black folks with looks on their faces that bespoke their joy and near disbelief at actually being present in the moment that only yesterday had been for them a fantasy forever beyond reach. And I saw a guy that looked like Jesse Jackson who had tears of joy and hope in his eyes…, …just like almost everyone else there…, …just like me.

I want to hear that speech again and again, until inauguration day…

I’m buying Krispy Kremes for the office tomorrow - “O” for Obama!!!

Wow. What a day…


Yesterday’s election kind of reminded me when Saruman the White told the Orcs to destroy the forests and they believed every lie they were told without question. And he told them what they all wanted to hear, This was the most emotional election in all of my many years. I did not see much palpable intelligent conversation going on at all. May all the women wait till the last minute for their late term abortions, hang the babies by their heads then cut the back of the neck before it is fully delivered (Obama supports late term abortions) and at least be real about what they are doing. Russia is already drawing lines in the sand. I guess you believe all this drivel, good for you. The world is drawing lines in the sand for resources. We are in some of the most perilous times that this last century has seen. Welcome home from nee nee nah nah land. Oh yeah, Russia is starting a cartel with Iran, Indonesia and some other lovers of freedom over there so they can control the gas prices in Europe. Eyes Open, Ears Click my friend.

[QUOTE=Zathros;2152585]Yesterday’s election kind of reminded me when Saruman the White told the Orcs to destroy the forests and they believed every lie they were told without question. And he told them what they all wanted to hear, This was the most emotional election in all of my many years. I did not see much palpable intelligent conversation going on at all. May all the women wait till the last minute for their late term abortions, hang the babies by their heads then cut the back of the neck before it is fully delivered (Obama supports late term abortions) and at least be real about what they are doing. Russia is already drawing lines in the sand. I guess you believe all this drivel, good for you. The world is drawing lines in the sand for resources. We are in some of the most perilous times that this last century has seen. Welcome home from nee nee nah nah land. Oh yeah, Russia is starting a cartel with Iran, Indonesia and some other lovers of freedom over there so they can control the gas prices in Europe. Eyes Open, Ears Click my friend.[/QUOTE]

Thank You - This is the kind of discussion I am looking for. I am personally NOT at all on the All Aboard the Obama train, by any means. Most of what I was feeling on that day was not about him but about the fact that it would seem the American people have at least gotten past a tiny bit of the stupidity of racial divides. My mother and I talked yesterday about how very young the United States really is, and how much change she has seen in her lifetime from the JFK, Martin Luther, women’s suffrage and Roe v Wade; we are only just becoming enlightened about a great many things, and there is still much resistance holding us back.

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I will say that I am not sure that all of this isn’t some grand design by the scientology people to take over the world. I am aware that prophepy about the antichrist states that he will be someone who initially brings everyone together under a banner of peace. However - I see little evidence that a McCain administration would have brought forth anything but more animosity at home AND abroad. Read again the last couple paragraphs of the first letter. I do think if anything is to go right, we first have to stop bickering with each other and set about to work. Mike Gravel was the first politician I have heard speak about how we all want to have this or that but don’t want to pay for it. HE would have been my choice, but I don’t think America is ready (wants) for that much truth, no matter how much we need it.

Here is a further line of communication between my father and I - and the input of my boyfriend as well. For the sake of context again, I am of mixed heritage; Mom is Chinese (american born, 1st generation), Dad is black (but from an unusual background as HIS father was the first black man to get his PHD at University of Buffalo (I think it was) and Dad the first black student body pres. at his high school. My boyfriend is white, son of a 30 yr Menlo Park Police officer. Because my parents argued so damn much over everything I am very aware of the fact that every idea has a counterpoint and often truth lies somewhere between the two.

SO…Please elaborate Zathros, and what solutions do you propose to avoid our impending doom?

the next exchange:

RE: 8:03 PM - Its Official! 297 ELECTORAL VOTES!!!Wednesday, November 5, 2008 2:13 AM

That actually was Jesse Jackson, and Oprah, and EVERYONE.

Interesting. This was obviously a very poignant experience for a great many people, but did you notice how similar some our thoughts were in the the response I sent to you at the same time you sent yours to me? From the internet to Martin Luther all the way down to the use of the phrase “Needless to say…” (LOL) Or maybe that is just due to genetics…

But as I said, even Mom was caught up in it. She and I were watching it together over the phone. . .She said when she went to vote everyone was really happy and friendly and talking to one another… She was really happy tonight.

As I watched the commentary that followed I looked towards Heaven and said, “Hey Martin, are you getting all this up there?.. Check it out!” and remembered again the time I picked you up from the airport and on the way home you leapt out of the car to say hello to Don Hellwig? (I think…)

As I watched you dash down the street to embrace him in my rearview mirror, I had thought then that there was a time when a black man running at a white man from behind like that would have caused considerable alarm and ended much less gregariously. I had considered that Dr. King would have been pleased to see such a warm greeting like that, and how our emergence from such stupidity had only been very recent, and that it was in fact your generation that really began the change, and how grateful I was that Grandma n’ Grandad had raised YOU in such a way that the thought probably never even crossed your mind that it was anything but natural to be that way. Which in turn got me thinking how interesting it was that I, as a child, got so frustrated by people asking me all the time what I “was.”

And curiously enough, Chad is really annoyed with the whole thing, actually a bit angry. He feels that it shouldn’t matter if he’s the first whatever, but rather that he’s the right man for the job. And he’s irritated; feels that people are making such a big deal out of it. Thing of it is, is he not hearing the whole thing? Or is he just exasperated that other people aren’t? It’s hard, because it’s true. I felt the same way in the beginning of the campaign, but since I went to vote (he didn’t) I also felt some of that rather contagious feeling of, I dunno what… The shame of it is that it is an historic occasion, but at least the occasion is here which indicates that we are beginning to move away from the shame of it… Baby steps, I guess. But “yes, we can.”

I hope you don’t mind, (though if you do I guess its too late to do anyhting about it) I posted both emails online in a thread at CDfreaks inviting others to share their conversations as well. For some reason I felt that these were some sentiments that should be shared with the world…

Thanks for bringing me up the way you did. Perhaps our struggles of the recent times are symptomatic of “growing pains” for society; you know, “darkest before the dawn” kind of thing. Another comment struck me as wildly funny when one of the NBC people was talking about the amazing coming together of the mixed demographics and the power of the united effort paying off in a grandiose manner, saying that in contrast to what we’ve had, really all of what had to be done was to call to the whole of the populace and say, “COME ON!” instead of pandering to just a partisan segment and fighting for the pieces. “Actually, it’s really so simple…” As he said it out loud, almost wonderingly, it was like it had just occurred to him: I could almost hear the ‘click’ of light coming on and the unstated realization of how lame we have all been being anything BUT this way, when this is all we had to do.

“Enlightenment” abounds.

I think this maybe should get posted too…

Wednesday, November 5, 2008 5:42 PM


Did I notice the similarities??? … I marveled at them. As I read the last couple of paragraphs a proud smile slowly emerged…
It’s genetics, I think, and, particularly, I also think, how the genes are nurtured. The thoughts you had as you watched, mirroring the thoughts I had as I watched, mirrored the thoughts mom (spoken) and dad (probably unspoken) probably would have had, which probably would have mirrored the thoughts their parents would have had as well. The “thank you” you gave to me (which also made me smile because it showed that I was able to give to you what was given to me) gets passed along, with mine added, on right back up the line - and I think each set of parents will smile like I did when it reaches them. We have been blessed to have been taught so well.

Interestingly, I think that Chad is correct in his feeling that basically it is a case of the right man for the job. If he really feels that way, and is truly able to skip all the other stuff, then he is a little ahead of his time in that regard - to answer your question I think that it is a case of being “exasperated that other people aren’t [seeing/hearing the same thing he does].” Much of America is just waking up to where we actually have gotten to, and, judging by the looks on the faces of the people at the park in Chicago yesterday, it kind of surprises them how much they seem to like it. The older black folks are experiencing realization (sublimely portrayed and represented by Jesse Jackson’s tears). They’ve had the picture in their minds for generations - the picture of finally being able to be just like other people, represented by “one of their own” being chosen. There is no anger in them - just joy and relief at seeing a cherished dream come true. The younger generation of blacks may have more of an “it’s about time” attitude, but I think both groups see a “black man as President.” It seemed to me that many of the faces of the older white people in the audience reflected something like - “this is the guy we need to be president now, and it happens that he’s black, but that’s okay because he’s energetic and intelligent and well-spoken, and a hell of a lot better than Bush.” For a lot of people, the ideal of “equality” became suddenly tangible. Did you hear Tom Brokaw’s comment? Maybe you can find it on the net (MSNBC or the CBS sites video clips.) I remember him when he was a newscaster in LA, and you could tell then that he was going to be somebody special in his field. He described what he saw in the scene, and it was a wonderful explanation of what in Buddhism is called “sympathetic joy.” Many of the younger faces in the crowd reflected what you described as “hero worship,” which was, I agree, a little unsettling. But few in all those thousands, I think, had the simple, unvarnished simple thought that “this is the right man for the job.”

The fact remains, though, that he is the first, and it is historic. And the history and the possibility for something positive for America after these last 8 years were the things that generated the “contagious feeling” that you caught when you went to vote. Commentators mentioned yesterday that many people voted just to be part of what was happening. One guy said that he didn’t think his vote as a number would matter one way or another, but he wanted his vote to be in the pool of what was going on. I don’t think it was a singular sentiment. But each vote did matter, and each vote will always matter. You can see that when you look at the details of the numbers in North Carolina and Missouri and Indiana.

Finally, you ask if I mind that you posted the emails…herewith another of our seemingly universal connections. I don’t mind at all. When I wrote to you, I copied the email and saved it to my desktop.The title??..“My Election Blog.”


I remember when Dr.Martin Luther King was murdered. I learned at the school playground in recess. Some really big black guys came up yo me to beat me up but then a few stood forward and said, “Let him go, he is o0ne of us, he’s Puerto Rican.”. I did feel like one of then. I did feel the loss. I though there3 was no coming back from that. I believed Martin Luther King when he spoke. He did not just say what people wanted to hear. He was martyred for it. I believe he was a prophet. I don’t know the way out of this but it will have to come from people. If we keep killing our young, born or unborn, it is going to make it a lot harder. If there is a God and we are being punished then we are really in for it. I don’t have any answers. I hope Obama turns out to be the best leader three world has ever seen. I guess I am on the Obama train now, it is the only train we got and if don’t try and help, the same evil people will steal and corrupt because they are everywhere.

Hear, Here

Several years ago I had a chance meeting and conversation with someone at CompUSA that began with a question to me “Is that your machine?” and ended in the parking lot several hours after the store closed. At the time, I was invited to join a group that met on the 2nd tuesday of each month at a bookstore to discuss issues that were currently before congress - dissecting the real meat of whatever it was and then taking action to support or discourage each of them. I was afraid that I knew just enough to be dangerous and declined then, as I did not want to inadvertently cause damage by being misinformed myself, but also because it seems that the unfortunate consequence of speaking out is becoming a target in the process. Recently I am of a different mindset. I am not afraid of dying anymore, but afraid of dying without having accomplished anything worthwile. I imagine that some kind of similar thought must have occured to Dr. King, and that was what led him to do what he did, and we are all better for it. Someone else once said that evil can only succeed where good people stand by and do nothing. So I think it better now to go ahead and cast my vote or my two cents (as here) in order to try at least.

Which is the reason most behind the origination of this post I suppose. I only recently came to the understanding that our presence in the middle east is much easier to comprehend if I think of it in terms of a board game like “Risk”. I just never thought that real life would use people’s lives like that. But with that understanding, I now am more cautious, and curious about how others percieve current goings on.

I am impressed with the attitude of being “on board whatever train we got.” If more people could think this way, we might yet save ourselves. Yet I am curious as to the emotion behind your original post. I got the impression that you think there is some wool-pulling going on, or at least some other unrealized agenda behind the Obama campaign. Was it specifically the late-term abortion idea that you take issue with or more?

I feel Obama says whatever people want to hear. I am opposed to abortion. I find the late term abotion where they hang the body out of the vagina and slit the back or the neck to be nothing less than murder. If someone attempted such a procedure on my child I would Kill them in an instant in defense of the defenseless child. The fact that they are now trying to force Doctors who are morally against asuch murderous acts in an abomination.
In the future all babies will be able to be carried to term. Artificial Wombs. The question will no longer be a womens right to carry the child. Women do not have the right over life or death and the sooner they learn that the better. Women will soon be in the position of a man who has gotten pregnant with a women and has to pay child support for the child. In the future, the man can decided 'I want the child and the women can pay child support for the child she doesn’t want. I find some women disgusting in their attitudes that they believe they have the right over life and death. The day that a foetus can be bought to full term will negate the argument a women has as to the laziness in caring for the child and locking out the fathers like we are some pieces of shit that can’t rise a child. To hell with abortionists women and may you pay with the most depressing post mortem imaginable, just in case you did not know about that.

If you have had an abortion and are really sincere in your regret then fall on your knee and ask God to forgive you, he will, it’s guaranteed, the price was already prayed. Be forgiven and be healed,

My anger goes out to the militant evil murdering women who kill the future leaders, doctors, lovers, and all around good people because you were to irresponsible to use proper birth control or just yank it out when the time came. These are the women who use abortion as birth control and have had many. Statistically they are well educated, so ignorance is no excuse.

Just for the record I am raising my 8 year old son, he is the light of my life. My other son is dead as an ex-girlfriend got pregnant and did not tell me. She was a nurse and a Doctor told her it would be good for her endometriosis. She aborted the child. I have begged God to forgive me. He would have been 27 now, another light of my life, now, just a very dark loss. Women can be very deceiving and lying, just like men. My wife knows all that happened, we have been together 25 years. She and my Son are everything to me. As would all those aborted children to the people who had them or gave them up to people who want to love them.

You americans really really needed “change” eh? :slight_smile:

you want to know something…change or not…differences or similarities…we are all human…and i just happen to be an american…I take pride in that fact…it is a shame when people attack other’s religious or political backgrounds…i’ve seen racism at its worse and i’ve seen reverse racism at its worst too…but i belive that everyone has good in themselves…its a personal choice whether you listen to that positive inner voice or chose to be stupid …being from the bible belt …i’ve had the opportuinity to attend many different churches…and i have a firm foundation in my beliefs…but for some to say abortion is wrong…there will always be a grey area…such as…Rape/incest/ or the life of the mother if she carries to full term…but to fight over the basic statement that all abortions are wrong i have to disagree…

now…i’ll get off my soap box and hush

[QUOTE=Mr. Belvedere;2154810]You americans really really needed “change” eh? :)[/QUOTE]

What? You’re gonna tell me the rest of the world is (has been:bigsmile:) delighted with the status quo over here? If America actually could actually develop a sense of humility?.. Why we might even get a worldwide consensus on the definition of “football”!:stuck_out_tongue:

The possibilities are staggering!!

Any women in this country can take their baby (in lieu of an abortion) and the Catholic Church will take that baby and find it a home. That is a fact. Medical issues where the safety of the mother is another consideration and s another completely different and also extremely rare. If you are planing an abortion and go to any Catholic Church and ask for help they will help you to save that baby. If you don’t want that baby they will find it a home. That is a fact. A fact that few know.

:cop: OOOOkay! Simmer down now! Your passionate stance is acknowledged, Zathros, but a bit off topic. The right to life issue isn’t going to be much influenced by this thread either way, But since we are here, consider the following and know that opinions change with maturity and experience:
From my own, and speaking ONLY for myself: I used to be comfortable with the idea of terminating a pregnancy; Generally I felt that it would be unfair for the child if I felt I was not up to task of caring for it, certain that I could do more harm than good, and also certain that I could not relinquish said child to someone else even so. My opinion on that was altered a bit by my father’s saying that I might actually have something of value to pass on to a child, and also reading something (I think it might have been The Celestine Prophecy or its sequel) that suggested the notion that we actually choose our parents in the “before-life” spiritual realm. The idea that I might be chosen ON PURPOSE as vehicle for another souls entrance to this realm gave the entire concept a whole different spin than biological happenstance, and may actually carry enough weight for me to choose to endure a term of pregnancy and delivery for unselfish reasons which I might not have otherwise considered. That being said, however, I feel that I must point out that it is no small favor to ask of any woman to experience the profound discomforts accompanying childbearing and birth (discomforts that are more easily dismissed by those women who actually desire the outcome of such a trial) for the sake of someone else, even one as innocent as the unborn, particularly if there are emotional pains to endure as well. On one hand pregnancy can be thought of as a beautiful nurturing if it comes from a space of love, but the other side of the coin may be more like having to feed a parasite that taking its life from your body without your say. [U] Unless you are willing to state that child life is inherently more valuable[/U], then consideration for the future of the child is not to be taken without the consideration for future AND present well being of the mother. (And there may even be an argument that not all life is good life, though I’ve no desire at all to further explore THAT topic at the moment…:confused:) How can anyone judge whether the life unrealized may even jeopardize the life which bears it to fruition either physically or emotionally and which is to be valued higher? Without having this cosmic omniscience, I think then that the closest rightful judge of whether they are strong enough to do so, is the woman who is in the position of bearing that physical and emotional responsibility, at least until by some spiritual or technological means that onus can be transferred to someone else who willingly accepts it. “Judge not, lest we be judged ourselves.”

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming…:bigsmile: