PX-716SA CD-R quality revisited

vbimport

#1

After testing my 716SA with both Verbatim (Mitsubishi AZO) and TY made CD-Rs, I still find the quality to be far from what it should be. See my Plextools samples below (read back at 24X and burned at 48X) of TY and MCC media burned on this drive. After visiting this thread:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=132826&highlight=PX-716A+Verbatim+CD-R

I realized that something is wrong, because Smoothieboy’s drive is definitely burning the MCC media much better than my drive is. The quality I’m getting is simply unacceptable. Does the CD-R burning on my drive just plain stink, or is there another explanation, such as TLA #? My drive is TLA #0304. Also, my drive is the SATA version. Could there be a SATA compatibility issue that could cause that lowsy C1 spike I see at the end of the 48X burns? I have Kprobe scans of the MCC media that look worse than the Plextools scans.

My TY sample 48X CD-R disc burned at 48X and read back at 24X in Plextools with a C1 Max = 40, and C1 Average = 4.6 (no C2 or CU errors):

http://club.cdfreaks.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29927

My Verbatim MCC 52X sample CD-R disc burned at 48X with PoweRec OFF and read back at 24X in Plextools with a C1 Max = 22 and C1 Average = 2.6 (no C2 or CU errors):

http://club.cdfreaks.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30399

Below is a Kprobe scan of the MCC disc read back at 32X and one read back at Max speed. Discs burned with good quality just don’t do this!


#2

Your scans look perfectly fine to me, what’s the problem?


#3

Why are you using Kprobe? I’d use Plextools instead. It’s more accurate.


#4

Is that the case? I use both tools determine how my Liteon 52327S CD burner and my 716SA read various CD-R discs. I would think that neither tool is more accurate, but both reflect how a certain drive reads the disc. I would like to think that Plextools is more accurate–it does seem to produce results that make more sense.


#5

I guess that depends on your definition of fine. I am expecting CD-R discs that no only have no C2 or CU errors, but CD-R discs that have low C1 error rates–the same low C1 error rates that I can get with my Liteon CD burner or LG DVD burner and the same low C1 error rates that others (i.e. Smoothieboy) have demonstrated are possible with the PX-716A. I would think that all PX-716As just plain were not good CD burners at all, but I have seen that some 716As can produce low C1 error rates on TY and MCC media. Hence my conclusion is that my individual 716SA drive is either a lowsy CD burner, or that the problem is a TLA # issue or SATA compatibility issue. But, because the drive can burn “acceptable” CD-Rs when using high quality TY or MCC media, I decided long ago that it was not worth RMA’ing this drive, especially since I can easily burn my CD-Rs on other of the other two optical drives I have in the same computer. Having three optical drivers in one PC has its advantages; one of those advantages is using each drive for what it excels in. The 716SA (including my individual 716SA) is a very good DVD burner, and is the best reader of DVD+/-R +/-RW media that I have. It is also a great CD reader. I can use my other drives for CD burning and pressed DVD reading, which my Plextor drive does not excel in. But, given how much I spent on this drive, I really did want to use it for CD-R burning, but for the time being, I have to give up on that.


#6

keep PoweRec on and burn at a slightly slower speed. what are your results like then?


#7

Let me answer that question with some scans of the MCC media. The TY media was never burned with PowerRec OFF–if you burn at 32X with PoweRec ON, the spike at the end of the disc still occurs, but the spike is smaller. As for the MCC media, I wasted 3 discs out of a 10-pack with these media tests. One discs was burned at 48X with PR OFF, one was burned at 48X with PR ON, and one was burned at 32X with PR ON. The scan of the 48X disc with PoweRec ON is at the URL:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30397&stc=1

Attached below is the 32X PR ON Plextools scan (read back at 24X again) of the 52X Verbatim/MCC CD-R. Max C1 = 26, Average C1 = 2.0, Total C1 = 9496, and no C2 or CU. Results were worse here than the scan I did at 48X with PR ON–the 48X PR ON disc was reduced to 32X by PoweRec. So even lowering the speed to 32X with PoweRec enabled does little to help the TY media, and does nothing to help the MCC burns.



#8

and you’ve tried with different batch codes of media to rule out a funky spindle? also, are you using the PX716 for scanning because both of mine give very disparate results compared to when i scan in my Premium. DVD burners aren’t preferred for QS CDs (not doubting you know this already, just saying).


#9

I use TY media sold under two different brand names. Since I do not burn a lot of discs, I buy mostly jewel cased media, and my preferred CD-Rs are the Maxell CD-R Pro 48X Made in Japan TY media (sold at Walmart for $6.99 for a 10-pack, with standard jewel cases). I have bought this media for two years now, and I love it. I have known about the Fuji MIJ TY media for a long time, but prefer the packaging and pricing of the Maxell CD-R Pro TY media. Nevertheless, I bought a 30-pack spindle of the Fuji 48X MIJ TY media primarily for media testing, since I didn’t want to waste a lot of my Maxell CD-R Pro TY media. I have tested both the Maxell CD-R Pro 48X TY and Fuji 48X TY media with the 716SA, with the same results–so I know it is not the media. Also, my other drives have no issues with either the Maxell CD-R Pro TY or Fuji TY. So, I have tested the TY media under two different brand names (therefore, two entirely different batches) and with 3 drives. All the TY media is good! As for the MCC media, I can speculate with reasonable certainty that it is good because I tested some older Verbatim 48X MCC Super AZO CD-Rs with the same 716SA, and found similar results–the only difference is that there were more C1 errors! I have yet to test any more of the 52X MCC CD-R media in my other drives, but I know it is good. Also, my Plextools scanning is done in my 716SA, the same drive that burned the discs. Yeah, I figured that DVD burners in general are inferior for CD-R burning, but my LG DVD burner rivals my Liteon CD burner in CD-R quality, and murders my Liteon burner in CD-RW write quality. In fact, my LG burns to 12X High Speed MCC CD-RW discs look like that of good CD-Rs! So DVD burners scan be quite good at burning CD-R/RWs, just not the 716A!


#10

my 716s dont’ have issues with CDs, and i was actually referring to the scanning and not the burning. here, see what i mean by disparate results and why, ideally, you should do your scanning in a dedicated CD burner and not a DVD burner:

please see posts #10 & 11 in this thread:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=134032


#11

The only CD burners I have that are capable of scanning are my Liteon 52327S and my older rebadged Liteon 52246S. I have scanned the TY and MCC media in question in my LTR-52327S (currently in the same computer as the 716SA) with Kprobe. Should I trust Liteon/Kprobe scans? I do not have a Plextor Premium drive or know anyone who owns one. I did think of testing the discs in my older rebadged Liteon 52246S (sold as TDK 52/24/48 with fancy blue bezel). What do you think? I would think that my 52327S with Kprobe should give accurate quality results of CD-Rs burned on the 716SA. BTW, the Kprobe results of the media were not really good, with one exception. Take a look at scan below. This is the same TY disc in question. Plextools scans (scanned in 716SA) look okay at 8X, but lowsy at 24X. Now look at the same TY disc scanned at 32X (not Max like I usually scan). Now that is a good result. Should I only trust 32X Kprobe scans, and not Plextools scans done on my 716SA? At the URL below is the 8X scan Plextools scan of the same disc. I know Ian@CDRLabs does use 32X KProbe scans in his reviews. It would help if I knew that that is the way I can get the most accurate CD-R quality scans of my 716SA burnt CD-R discs.

Plextools 8X scan:

http://club.cdfreaks.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29929&stc=1

The Plextools 8X scan at the above URL has Max C1 = 14, Average C1 = 0.9, Total C1 = 4175, no C2 or CU.



#12

drpino: I have looked at that thread you pointed me to before, but not paid enough attention to it. You seem to have done a good job in proving that at least some 716A drives do not produce meaningful C1/C2 scans, given how much better your Premium’s scans of the same 716A burnt media are. The question (like I said above) is: how do I get an accurate idea of the CD-R quality without using the 716SA for scanning (since I don’t own or have access to a Plextor Premium)? I know some doubt the accuracy of Kprobe at Max speed scans–which is what I am used to doing. Hopefully Kprobe 32X scans give me results that are are actually useful.


#13

Have you tried to burn CD at to 8x? I am using MCC Phono-R EX CDR. It is made in Taiwan.

I found hundreds of error if I burnt it with 16x, 32x and 48x. Even sometimes get C2 errors at these speed. My only solution to get a good burn with sub-20 C1 error burnt is to burn the disc at 8x only. If I turn on VariRec and select 8x with Azo, it may even generate sub-10 C1 errors. As my 716 can still make a good burn. I don’t think it would be defective.



#14

honestly tlotz…i don’t know what drive to trust the most with scanning (and any particular drive only shows how well/poor it reads the media).


#15

Just because your DVD burner is, um, crummy :stuck_out_tongue: at scanning doesn’t mean they all are! Behold the :bow: that is the PX712: :smiley:

PS: This was done on the cheapest media (Ritek) I could find.



#16

that’s at 8X… :stuck_out_tongue:

from what i’ve read (here), DVD burners aren’t the best scanners because the laser isn’t dedicated to one wavelength like a CD-RW is.

have you scanned that particular disc in any other drives? cd or dvd? if so, post it/them.


#17

here’s more to chomp on:

-------------------------------------------------------
PlexTools Professional V2.21	 CD/DVD Copy
Copyright (C) 1999-2005 Plextor SA/NV
Tuesday, April 19, 2005
-------------------------------------------------------

Software information
--------------------
Operating system: Windows XP V5.01.2600 Service Pack 2
ASPI Manager: n/a
Description : n/a

Source Information
------------------
IDE Interface 0 ID: -  Maximum # Targets: -

Description: Primary IDE Channel
Type	   : IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers

Port Driver: atapi.sys
Provider   : 
Description:  ()
Location   : C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\atapi.sys
Version	: 
Date	   : 

ID 0: PLEXTOR DVDR   PX-716A   V1.06 (S/N:133475) (0.17.49A - 13.37.9D)
Read speed: 17-40 X CAV, Jumper settings: 001
AudioCD, 1 session(s), 14 track(s), 64:17.27

Destination Information
-----------------------
IDE Interface 1 ID: -  Maximum # Targets: -

Description: Secondary IDE Channel
Type	   : IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers

Port Driver: atapi.sys
Provider   : 
Description:  ()
Location   : C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\atapi.sys
Version	: 
Date	   : 

ID 0: PLEXTOR DVDR   PX-716A   V1.06 (S/N:140853) (0.5.5A - 7.43.38D)
Read speed: 20-48 X CAV, Jumper settings: 001, Buffer Underrun Proof enabled
Blank disc, Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation (type 3), 79:59:73

CD/DVD Copy Log
---------------
Selected write speed: 48 X
include: UPC: yes  ISRC: yes  CD+G: yes
1st session only : no
Allow Overburning : yes   Leave Disc Open: no
Audio Error Detection : disabled
-Advanced error detection disabled
-Maximum errors   : unlimited
-Allow Speed Down : yes
Read Error Recovery Strategy : 5. Recover the best bytes (least errors) per sector.
Error log : C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents\\CDCopyLog_2005_4_19_01h07m23s.txt


[01:07:30]  Scanning tracks
[01:07:43]  Start Write Copy 1/1
[01:08:34]  Writing Lead In + CD TEXT
[01:08:55]  Writing Track 1  Start:00:00.00  Length:00:25.72
[01:08:56]  Writing Track 2  Start:00:25.72  Length:03:11.55
[01:09:05]  Writing Track 3  Start:03:37.52  Length:02:30.04
[01:09:11]  Writing Track 4  Start:06:07.56  Length:04:23.65
[01:09:22]  Writing Track 5  Start:10:31.46  Length:04:12.52
[01:09:31]  Writing Track 6  Start:14:44.23  Length:06:51.36
[01:09:46]  Writing Track 7  Start:21:35.59  Length:05:52.31
[01:09:57]  Writing Track 8  Start:27:28.15  Length:06:51.28
[01:10:10]  Writing Track 9  Start:34:19.43  Length:01:09.73
[01:10:12]  Writing Track 10  Start:35:29.41  Length:08:44.74
[01:11:14]  Writing Track 11  Start:44:14.40  Length:04:51.22
[01:11:23]  Writing Track 12  Start:49:05.62  Length:05:39.59
[01:11:34]  Writing Track 13  Start:54:45.46  Length:04:09.43
[01:11:42]  Writing Track 14  Start:58:55.14  Length:05:22.13
[01:11:52]  Writing Lead Out
[01:12:04]  BP Rec activity: 1 occurences. (BP Counter)
[01:12:04]  Selected Write Speed			: 48 X
[01:12:04]  Maximum Media Write Speed : 32 X
[01:12:04]  Actual Last Write Speed		 : 32 X   PoweRec : enabled
[01:12:22]  CD/DVD Copy completed successfully (4:59)

and the C1/C2 scans from PX-716A TLA 0202, PX-716A TLA 0101 and PX-Premium respectively…the two PX-716 scans are virtually identical…are they in the right or is the outnumbered Premium more accurate?


#18

I’ve said this before for DVDR media but it also applies to CDR/RW media. The C1/C2 scans are a nice feature and an indication of the quality of the disc but you have to keep in mind that there are always variations between drives and media. The scans I’ve seen posted here all look fine, meaning that they show no problem area’s and therefor they should work perfectly fine in the devices you’re going to use the burned discs in. I personally don’t care if the C1 score has an average of 0.5 or 3.0, as long as the discs work as they are supposed to. But that’s a personal opinion of course.


#19

finally, a burned CD-R that scanned nearly identically in all 3 drives (in order, 716 0101, 716 0202, Premium):

<table class=“caption” spacing=“0” id=“Table2” border=“0” width=“100%”> <tbody><tr><td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Drive Info</td> <td>
</td> <td colspan=“2”>ID:0 PLEXTOR DVDR PX-716A V1.06 (#133475)</td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Settings</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Read Speed:</td> <td align=“left”>10-24X CAV</td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Result</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Disc Info:</td> <td align=“left”>CD Extra - Mode 1 (AUDIO), 73:58.00 MSF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> <td colspan=“2”> <table class=“caption” spacing=“0” id=“Table3” border=“0” width=“100%”> <tbody><tr> <td width=“86”>
</td> <td align=“right”>Avg/Sec</td> <td align=“right”>Max/Sec</td> <td align=“right”>Total</td> <td width=“60”>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>C1</td> <td align=“right”>1.2</td> <td align=“right”>19.0</td> <td align=“right”>5553.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>C2</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>CU</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan=“5”>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Duration</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>0:04:01</td> <td align=“left”>
</td></tr></tbody> </table>

<table class=“caption” spacing=“0” id=“Table2” border=“0” width=“100%”> <tbody><tr><td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Drive Info</td> <td>
</td> <td colspan=“2”>ID:0 PLEXTOR DVDR PX-716A V1.06 (#140853)</td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Settings</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Read Speed:</td> <td align=“left”>10-24X CAV</td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Result</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Disc Info:</td> <td align=“left”>CD Extra - Mode 1 (AUDIO), 73:58.00 MSF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> <td colspan=“2”> <table class=“caption” spacing=“0” id=“Table3” border=“0” width=“100%”> <tbody><tr> <td width=“86”>
</td> <td align=“right”>Avg/Sec</td> <td align=“right”>Max/Sec</td> <td align=“right”>Total</td> <td width=“60”>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>C1</td> <td align=“right”>1.1</td> <td align=“right”>22.0</td> <td align=“right”>5069.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>C2</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>CU</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan=“5”>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Duration</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>0:04:01</td> <td align=“left”>
</td></tr></tbody> </table>

<table class=“caption” spacing=“0” id=“Table2” border=“0” width=“100%”> <tbody><tr><td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Drive Info</td> <td>
</td> <td colspan=“2”>ID:0 PLEXTOR CD-R PREMIUM V1.06 (#181251)</td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Settings</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Read Speed:</td> <td align=“left”>10-24X CAV</td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Result</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>Disc Info:</td> <td align=“left”>CD Extra - Mode 1 (AUDIO), 73:58.00 MSF</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> <td colspan=“2”> <table class=“caption” spacing=“0” id=“Table3” border=“0” width=“100%”> <tbody><tr> <td width=“86”>
</td> <td align=“right”>Avg/Sec</td> <td align=“right”>Max/Sec</td> <td align=“right”>Total</td> <td width=“60”>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>C1</td> <td align=“right”>1.1</td> <td align=“right”>22.0</td> <td align=“right”>4975.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>C2</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td width=“86”>CU</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td align=“right”>0.0</td> <td>
</td> </tr> <tr> <td colspan=“5”>
</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> <tr> <td class=“item” align=“right” valign=“top”>Test Duration</td> <td>
</td> <td align=“left” valign=“top” width=“20%”>0:04:07</td> <td align=“left”>
</td></tr></tbody> </table>


#20

Nice scans drpino :wink: They look the same, I agree but there is still a rather large variation when you look at the total amount of errors: 4975 vs. 5553 (11% difference!)… :stuck_out_tongue: