Problem with Audio Master Quality Recording

vbimport

#1

Hi. I’ve done Audio-CD from MP3s with AMQR by Plexwriter Premium2. But this CD-R can’t be read on my other drives - PX880SA and LaCie (reading on Plexwriter Premium2 is Ok). What’s the matter?


#2

This problem isn’t unique or specific to AMQR. It can also happen with GigaRec burnings.

Supposedly there are some non-Plextor non-Yamaha drives that can read AMQR burnings, but I don’t know which models.

Ultimately what matters is whether or not a CD player understands the disc. Otherwise, if the disc is intended for computer use only, there isn’t much for AMQR to accomplish even with a drive which can read it.


#3

You want to say that only few models of drives can understand CDs written by Gigarec(AMQR)? And most of drives can’t read such CDs?


#4

That’s correct.
Even my original Premium struggles with acknowledging AMQR discs.

The other thing I’ve noticed, is that the Premiums (first and second generation) don’t like to read GigaRec or AMQR burnings, faster than 8x - and that’s if they can even read it at all.

So to me, GigaRec and AMQR are just a wee bit overrated. For archiving purposes, I’d rather have not-quite-as-low jitter burnings I could read at much higher speeds.


#5

[QUOTE=Glathannus;2465039]That’s correct.
Even my original Premium struggles with acknowledging AMQR discs.

The other thing I’ve noticed, is that the Premiums (first and second generation) don’t like to read GigaRec or AMQR burnings, faster than 8x - and that’s if they can even read it at all.

So to me, GigaRec and AMQR are just a wee bit overrated. For archiving purposes, I’d rather have not-quite-as-low jitter burnings I could read at much higher speeds.[/QUOTE]

Playing around/testing GigaRec (Premium2) I have recorded a 40 minute audio CD using the 0.6X setting, although it will play on my CD player - when I try to do a Beta/Jitter scan the Premium2 struggles to even read the TOC and takes for ever doing a pre-scan of the tracks. Read speed set to 4X

So how do you do quality scans on GigaRec writes?

Is this normal? Reading your quoted post it is. Shouldn’t the Premium2 be able to read its own writes?
Or is my Premium2 faulty?


#6

I use my original Premium for quality testing on GigaRec 0.6x, 0.7x, and 0.8x. I use my Premium2 for quality testing on GigaRec 0.9x, and AMQR. If I had it my way, the Premium could and would be testing everything, because it’s slightly more into the brutally honest side than the Premium2 is.


#7

[QUOTE=nikolaevmv;2464987]Hi. I’ve done Audio-CD from MP3s with AMQR by Plexwriter Premium2. [/QUOTE]

MP3 is a format that means data-loss for the achieved compression. So from an audiophile standpoint MP3 is less than an optimal source for a writing method like AMQR, that tries to make sure audio playback is optimal. IMHO in such a case using good quality media an a regular burn-method will not loose you anything when it comes to playback compared to the use of AMQR.

[QUOTE=nikolaevmv;2464987]But this CD-R can’t be read on my other drives - PX880SA and LaCie (reading on Plexwriter Premium2 is Ok). What’s the matter?[/QUOTE]

Most important question first: What kind (Brand, ATIP) of CR-D are you talking about?

The 880SA is labelled “Plextor” but is based on a LiteON drive. AFAIK LaCie does not build drives themselves but labels and sells third party drives like Plextor does nowadays. Unfortunately (in my very personal experience) LiteOn drives are not the best choice when it comes to anything that concerns CD.


#8

[QUOTE=Sonic2171;2465855]Playing around/testing GigaRec (Premium2) I have recorded a 40 minute audio CD using the 0.6X setting[/QUOTE]

Compatibility of GigaRec get’s worse the more you deviate from the ‘standard’ CD-R format (i.e. no GigaRec). From the possible settings 0.6, 0.7, 0.8, 0.9, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 I’d strongly recommend you go not lower/higher than 0.8/1.2, unless you have a very good reason for doing so. To illustrate:

Gigarec @1.3 with more errors that a normal burn

Gigarec @1.4 with loads of errors

[QUOTE=Sonic2171;2465855]although it will play on my CD player - when I try to do a Beta/Jitter scan the Premium2 struggles to even read the TOC and takes for ever doing a pre-scan of the tracks. Read speed set to 4X[/QUOTE]

CD players always read @1x which is less demanding than higher speed. Reading GigaRec/AMQR means the standard read speed 1.2m/s or 1.4m/s @1x needs to be adjusted. Something that is not trivial, because when going beyond a certain point you’ll move outside possible speeds set in the red book standard or possible tolerances of that standard.

[QUOTE=Sonic2171;2465855] So how do you do quality scans on GigaRec writes?[/QUOTE]

Same as on normal discs. The predefined limits by the standard however (220 max. for BLER for example) need to be seen with a grain of salt, since the disc was (eventually) created to be outside of the standard to begin with.

[QUOTE=Sonic2171;2465855]Is this normal? Reading your quoted post it is. Shouldn’t the Premium2 be able to read its own writes?
Or is my Premium2 faulty?[/QUOTE]

See my other question: What CD-R did you use? Some type of media don’t like GigaRec/AMQR. Look here where AMQR gets off worst (albeit still ok) compared to 40x and 2x burns:



Other than that: Red Book (definition of Audio CD) defines two speeds for CDs:
63min with 1.4m/s
74min with 1.2m/s
(80min as 74min with the pre-groove spiral of the data track been narrowed)

Basically this means the extra minutes of the 74min CD are created by turning the (same) CD slower (the same amount of data passes the laser but needs less space). AMQR (=GigaRec at a rate of 0.85) simply reverses that trick. Turning a 74min CD @1.4m/ makes a longer area pass the laser in the same time (the same data takes up more space). Since AMQR thus stays within Red Book speed definitions it should, in theory, be readable by any drive. However practical experience shows that drive manufacturers seem to have a different view of things (possibly assuming that a 74min or 80min disc is always to be read at 1.2m/s or multiplies thereof. But that’s a wild guess. Nobody can tell for sure. It would mean a deep look into the firmware.) Computer drives seem particularly more affected by this than audio drives in stereos.


#9

[QUOTE=hwp;2465967]See my other question: What CD-R did you use? Some type of media don’t like GigaRec/AMQR.

[/QUOTE]

I bought some Plextor/TY 48X (97m24s01f) discs to experiment with, hoping to obtain the best results.

Before reading your reply I had just spent a while going through your original review thread (2006) - very interesting.

[QUOTE=hwp;2465967]Compatibility of GigaRec get’s worse the more you deviate from the ‘standard’ CD-R format (i.e. no GigaRec). From the possible settings 0.6, 0.7, 0.8, 0.9, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 I’d strongly recommend you go not lower/higher than 0.8/1.2, unless you have a very good reason for doing so.

[/QUOTE]

So do the 0.6, 0.7, 1.3 and 1.4 settings have any uses at all?

Also, is it possible to work out the recommended maximum write speed, apart from doing an actual PoweRec write, from the FE/TE scan results?
Does Plextools (I am using Pro 2.36) store the results in any accessible form?


#10

[QUOTE=Sonic2171;2466006]I bought some Plextor/TY 48X (97m24s01f) discs to experiment with, hoping to obtain the best results.[/QUOTE]

Those should work well.

[QUOTE=Sonic2171;2466006]So do the 0.6, 0.7, 1.3 and 1.4 settings have any uses at all?[/QUOTE]
It depends on what you do. Since compatibility issues start to raise the use is simply not universal anymore. My stereo had no problems playing 1.3x audio CDs. So this was a nice way to make ‘long-play’ compilations of favourite music. It also accepts AMQR CDs without complaining.
Newer stereos can play MP3-files. So if one doesn’t mind the quality loss of MP3 one can create CDs that play way longer than any GigaRec CD. It really depends on what you want and what you have a use for.

[QUOTE=Sonic2171;2466006]Also, is it possible to work out the recommended maximum write speed, apart from doing an actual PoweRec write, from the FE/TE scan results?[/QUOTE]

Yes, you can (however remember that Focus Error (flatness of the disc) and Tracking Error (whether the pre-groove spiral is well centered/doesn’t deviate) are only two of many factors that influence PoweRecs max. speed recommendation.

Speed directly takes influence in FE/TE:


So when the error at a given speed gets to high, slowing down will also lower the error allowing the burn to continue.

Here is a nice example of a disc what does not remain flat towards the outside and how the drive reacts to this fact by adjusting writing speed:

Some Plextor docs say FE should not pass 30. The above example shows that my Premium2 starts falling back at values around 40-50. So doing FE/TE-Tests at different speeds let’s you determine what speed does not pass the value where your drive starts to slow down writing speed to retain quality.

[QUOTE=Sonic2171;2466006]Does Plextools (I am using Pro 2.36) store the results in any accessible form?[/QUOTE]

Not by itself. A right-click in the graph gives you the choice to print or save the result of a finished test.