Poor burn with Philips mid code Blu-ray

vbimport

#1

Hi, I am wondering if anyone can help me understand this Disc Quality scan. I just tried to play back my daughters’ recital that I burned on Blu Ray (Optical Quantum PhilipsR04-000) a few months ago.

When I tried playing the BDR yesterday, the playback was choppy at best and it just got stuck midway. Luckily I have it archived in the cloud, but I am trying to understand what i did wrong here.


#2

timothevs, welcome to the forums.

Your question would be better suited for its own thread, rather than the main OptiDrive Control thread, so I’m going to move your post into the Blank Media forum.

The Philips mid code Blu-ray discs are not well liked around here. Along with Ritek, they have developed a poor reputation for burn quality.

You would be better off using Panasonic, FTI/Falcon or Verbatim discs.


#3

Panasonic discs are hard to get in the US, but can be found at Amazon or ebay.

FTI/Falcon are sold under the SmartBlu brand at MediaMegaMall.

Verbatim can be found virtually anywhere, though you must be careful not to buy their LTH variety of discs.

Another type you might want to look at are the Melody brand discs sold on Amazon. They use an Infome-R40 mid code I believe. I haven’t tried these, but several of our members use them with great success.


#4

Thanks - for your reply and for moving it to the right forum.

I have been living under a rock when it comes to blank media. I didn’t do my due research (as I do with nearly everything else), and relied instead on the positive reviews these Optical Quantum discs get on Newegg/Amazon.

I will research the brands you mentioned and read up in this forum to guide my future purchases.

As for the graph above, the LDC and BIS levels are way out of whack as I understand. What should be an acceptable value for the same? I just burned a new BDR (same as above) as a test case, with 4x speed (not automatic), using IMGBURN on Windows 7 (I had been using OSX), and verified the disc (I skipped it last time). All the checks/burn completed successfully.

I just ran the Opti Drive Control against the new BR, and the LDC is averaging around 440 and BIS ~ 8. A far cry from the failed BRD. But what is an acceptable average one should expect?


#5

I’m not an expert on Blu-ray scans, so I’ll leave that to someone who is. Albert will probably show up with some info for you. :slight_smile:

Slowing your burn speed to 4x is certainly a good idea with your Philips discs, but I would still be wary of using them for archival use.


#6

Welcome to the forum [I]timothevs[/I]. :flower:

You’re not the first person to have problems with PhilipsR04-000. They seem to be as bad as Ritek’s BD-R, maybe even worse.

Which drive was the disc written and scanned with?

Also, was the disc readable immediately after it was written?

I’m just curious to know if has degraded, or was just a bad disc to begin with.

CD/DVD/Blu-ray writers don’t verify the written data on the fly as HDDs do, so a successful disc burn doesn’t necessarily equal a readable disc. Always verify discs after writing to ensure it is readable and matches the source data.


#7

Example of a good/excellent burn:

Examples of mediocre/okay:

Those are just to give you an idea of what people go for when they burn. Anything worse than what you see above indicates a subpar burn, and you already have an example of discs that are pretty much a coaster.

There are conversations about the actual official specifications/limits of BD media…

[QUOTE=medicalImageImporter;2238631]…c’t magazine has stated that the average LDC should stay below 13 and the maximum BIS should not exceed 8…[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SLOVEHEART;2445272]…
Erik Deppe states that a good burn has a LDC value 13 or under (I believe it is 130 or under) and a BIS of 15 or under…[/QUOTE]

…and while each quote agrees on average LDC being less than 13 for a good disc, when it comes to the maximum BIS value you’d want, I’d say you want to avoid a disc with a bunch of spikes of height 15, or clumps of BIS that reach up to 8, to avoid a mediocre burn. The BIS is much more important than LDC. So in the case of the mediocre burns, you see one disc with a clump of BIS values around 5 or 6, which is okay; on the other mediocre disc, you see it spikes up to 11, and clearly has a hump in the middle that reaches somewhere in the 6 to 8 range – still within spec, but not as good. [But also notice that the actual average is still fairly low in comparison; this is a result of the way the data is displayed, crammed into one window, so if you have a high average BIS paired with a high maximum BIS, the disc is probably pretty poor].

Anyway, which BDR drive are you using?


#8

[B][EDIT: While I was busy typing & fact checking, Albert has beaten me to it. :doh:][/B]

There doesn’t appear to be an agreed standard for what values constitute a good BD disc, at least not when scanned with consumer drives. Then reviews on Myce only mention the official specification which is for discs scanned with much more sophisticated equipment.

Erik Deppe writes in the Opti Drive control manual that “On a good disc the average LDC should stay below 13 and BIS should stay below 15.”

A German computer magazine, c’t, said “for a quality BD-R burn, the average LDC should stay below 13 and the maximum BIS should not exceed 8”.

But discs can exceed these limits by a considerable margin and still be perfectly readable.

A very useful test is the ‘transfer rate test’. If a disc cannot be read without slowing down then it is definitely substandard (or the drive performing the test is a really bad reader).


#9

[QUOTE=Albert;2744351]
Those are just to give you an idea of what people go for when they burn. Anything worse than what you see above indicates a sub par burn, and you already have an example of discs that are pretty much a coaster.

…and while each quote agrees on average LDC being less than 13 for a good disc, when it comes to the maximum BIS value you’d want, I’d say you want to avoid a disc with a bunch of spikes of height 15, or clumps of BIS that reach up to 8, to avoid a mediocre burn. The BIS is much more important than LDC. So in the case of the mediocre burns, you see one disc with a clump of BIS values around 5 or 6, which is okay; on the other mediocre disc, you see it spikes up to 11, and clearly has a hump in the middle that reaches somewhere in the 6 to 8 range – still within spec, but not as good. [But also notice that the actual average is still fairly low in comparison; this is a result of the way the data is displayed, crammed into one window, so if you have a high average BIS paired with a high maximum BIS, the disc is probably pretty poor].

Anyway, which BDR drive are you using?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Ibex;2744352]
There doesn’t appear to be an agreed standard for what values constitute a good BD disc, at least not when scanned with consumer drives. Then reviews on Myce only mention the official specification which is for discs scanned with much more sophisticated equipment.

Erik Deppe writes in the Opti Drive control manual that “On a good disc the average LDC should stay below 13 and BIS should stay below 15.”

A German computer magazine, c’t, said “for a quality BD-R burn, the average LDC should stay below 13 and the maximum BIS should not exceed 8”.

But discs can exceed these limits by a considerable margin and still be perfectly readable.

A very useful test is the ‘transfer rate test’. If a disc cannot be read without slowing down then it is definitely substandard (or the drive performing the test is a really bad reader).[/QUOTE]

Thank you both very kindly for a very in-depth reply and good burn illustrations. I must say I have learned SO much in the last 24 hours. Had I known all the exhaustive tests you guys put Blank Media up for, back when I put in the order for these Optical Quantum BDR discs, I would’ve thought twice and gone with a more expensive but less troublesome route.

First things first, in response to both you guys, the drive used to burn the BDRs initially was a LiteOn iHBS112 on a 2010 Mac Pro using the Toast Titanium 14 app (I am a Mac guy with limited access to Windows machines).

For playback I use a Windows HTPC machine with an LG BDROM drive UH12NS30. It is in the family room and is not conducive to serve as a media station. The drive doesn’t do Disc Quality tests, so I used an external Buffalo BDXL burner to try that. Those results above are from the Buffalo BDXL.

All last night I was up throwing previous burns to the test. Here’s what I found, pardon me if it is common knowledge.

[ul]
[li] Verbatim 50GB BDR DL HTL Media I got from Amazon ($130 for 50) showed the best LDC and BIS levels. Like 5 for the former, and 0.9 for BIS. I burned these without any care for the speeds etc on the iHBS112.[/li][li] Putting a paper label on the disc murdered the thing. The example above was from a paper labeled disc. The paper label was from Meritline, and wow, nearly all BDRs I put a paper label on, had horrible LDC and BIS levels.[/li][li] I tried a few comparative burns on Toast Titanium 14 on Mac and IMGBURN on Windows on the PHILIPSR04-000 media (Optical Quantum), and the LDC/BIS on Mac was nearly always twice the values from an IMGBURN burn. Both burns were accomplished with the media rated burn speed (never auto again), with no extraneous processes running on both machines.[/li][/ul]

What I take away from this is that I need to get better media (d-uh), and never put any paper (full face) labels on the discs. Unfortunately, using IMGBURN is not an option for me on a day-to-day basis (primary machine = Mac), but I must burn exactly at the rated speed, or at speeds determined by tests here on the forum for the media/burner.

Thank you guys again! I am on the hunt for good media, Melody is on its way from Amazon, and should that work out well, I will venture forth for Falcon/FTI as well.


#10

so the Mac has a LiteOn installed, and the Windows machine – where you used ImgBurn – has a Buffalo external drive, correct? (I’m ignoring the LG combo drive you mentioned for a reason; don’t worry.) Which Buffalo external drive is it?


#11

[QUOTE=Albert;2744400]so the Mac has a LiteOn installed, and the Windows machine – where you used ImgBurn – has a Buffalo external drive, correct? (I’m ignoring the LG combo drive you mentioned for a reason; don’t worry.) Which Buffalo external drive is it?[/QUOTE]

Correct the LiteOn iHBS112 is internal to the Mac Pro. The Buffalo Drive is an external drive and a roamer and is this one (Amazon link).

Ah yes, I am not too fond of the LG drive either. It was bought in a pinch to just provide BR playback to our HTPC.


#12

Your Buffalo drive is a rebadged Samsung, and Samsung’s drives aren’t bad, so that will probably explain the quality difference. The iHBSx12 series isn’t bad, but it isn’t quite as good as drives from other manufacturers, especially with lower-quality media. If you try the Buffalo/Samsung with the Mac, you should still have decent results without relying on ImgBurn.


#13

[QUOTE=Albert;2744407]Your Buffalo drive is a rebadged Samsung, and Samsung’s drives aren’t bad, so that will probably explain the quality difference. The iHBSx12 series isn’t bad, but it isn’t quite as good as drives from other manufacturers, especially with lower-quality media. If you try the Buffalo/Samsung with the Mac, you should still have decent results without relying on ImgBurn.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Albert. Unfortunately, that drive is a loaner from my friend. I would like to buy an internal drive for the Mac Pro… I feel like a cad asking for recommendations, but is there a good internal alternative drive recommended here?


#14

The Pioneer drives are the most recommended around here for Blu-ray burners. The current one is the BDR-209DBK, or the BDR-2209 if you would prefer the retail model. Second most commonly recommended are the LG drives, with the current model being the WH16NS40.

Both brands have their strengths. My Pioneer is a very good writer, but is not as good a reader as my LG. Neither will do scans, but you already have a Lite-on for that.