PLEASE help - I am concerned over something (high PIF totals)

Hi - I was hoping one of you could help me out with this - I could not help but read all those posts about media tests and watching all those posted images…I understand what PI/PIF errors mean, PI <280 and PIF <4 are within spec. NOW…Here is my question…Is the TOTAL COUNT of PIF important or it’s more of the individual PIF maximums?

EXAMPLE… I use Maxell DVD+R which are said to be made in Japan…Now in my opinion Made in Japan is CRAP - I have had a lot of bad luck with stuff made in Japan. Anyhow, I get EXCELLENT PI usually max 10 spread all the way evenly… PIF maximums are <4, usually the highest 2. HOWEVER, the TOTAL PIF count is quite high…For a full 4.38GB disc I can go from 1500-2000 PIF totals (however individual PIF never exceeding spec)… On previous spindles of Maxell made by RICOH even RITEK I would get HALF the total amount of PIFs… NOW…is having a big maximum of PIFs dangerous?

I attach some images, I don’t have a personal scan so I ripped one off from here just to use as an example and because I get identical results…

As you can see below, the PI is pretty good…Total count is pretty good too… <100,000 total count is good in my books. Looking at the PIF, within specs, never exceeding 4, however as you can see there are LOTS of PIF, the total count is high… ON other media scans I’ve seen as much as 120, 200 and 400… This this total count important or is it the individual PIF values that are important ?

Why the hell would MAXELL002, made in Japan, have such horrid PIF totals compared to my old RITEKs and CMCs that have a TOTAL count of PIF of 230 with individual PIF being 1 at most…

I’ve tried resetting learnt media,swapping, everything, you name it. Should I sue Maxell? I KNOW this is not a LITEON problem because I get similar results on a colleague’s computer running NEC, BenQ and Plextors.

Or should I not be concerned over readings like this.

Why then do I get such big TOTALS on PIFs yet the PIs are excellent…

Aren’t PIFs uncorrectable errors ? So with such a big total would that cause playback problems ?

Thanks for all the replies in advance.

II get identical results scanning with different LITEON models, including 1633, 811, etc…

Identical PIF totals no matter if scanned at 1x, 2x, 4x, max.

Tried strat swap same PIF totals.

Total doesn’t matter as much, your max is only 2 (nice). I can understand it might be a bit annoying, but i’ve seen many worse burns on that media so i think your results are pretty good. definitely nothing to worry about.

I suspect you will get good readback/transfer rate ?

Thanks for the reply. Anybody else ?

I still think over 1000 total is a lot. What causes excellent PI but a high total of PIF, I mean those are made in japan Maxell, why the hell would they have such big totals, is the disc bad ? In your opinion it seems a good scan, however I can show you scans of other medias I used in the past where the total was 135 with PIF max 1, the highest total PIFs I’ve had was about 500, and that was on even the cheapest disc. How come I get over 1000 ?

Aren’t those uncorrectable errors ? Why would there be so many on this type of discs ?

Your PIFs look beautiful. Over 1000 is not high at all. And as mentioned before, the total does not matter because it’s the distribution that counts.

And yes, PIFs are uncorrectable in the sense that they are PI errors that are uncorrectable. DVDs have two layers of error correction, and this simply means that the first level failed to correct for these errors–at the low levels that you have, the second layer of correction should have no problems with them. It is not uncommon to see PIF scans much worse than what you have here for commercial pressed DVDs, so you shouldn’t worry.

Great ! Thanks for the reply - I like to hear that :slight_smile:

However what has me concerns is seeing all those red lines so close to one another. As mentionned before, I used CMC, RITEK and RICOH discs in the past which had occasional red lines and a total of sometimes 230, 137, highest being 500. Eventhough you said the total doesn’t really matter, why in your opinion are the red lines consistent on this disc and spread evenly like that ? Why is the total over 1000, does it mean the disc quality is poor ? Even if it is ok, I still am curious to know. Why do other scans here show a few red lines only and very low PIF totals…does it mean the other discs are of better quality ?

When you have tens of billions of little pits being made at the kinds of speeds that a disc is spinning at (thousands of RPMs!!) and you’re restricted to microscopic accuracy, it’s a wonder that there are so few errors. You always will get errors, and that is a fact of life that you can’t avoid. This is why DVDs have very very extensive error correction. It’s very rare that both layers of protection (inner and outer – PI and PO) fail.

Density matters only in the height of the line. You can have lots of lines close together and not cause a problem. It is only when the errors are so dense that they appear in the same error correction block that you start to have problems. When your PIF has a max value of two, it means that the most number of PIF errors you got in an error correction block is two. It doesn’t matter too much how many you have in the adjacent blocks as they are independent. As long as you don’t have more than four per block, you’re fine.

So to clarify, it IS the distribution that matters, but NOT so much the distribution of the lines, but more the height of the lines as the heigh of the red lines is what measures the distribution at the level that matters!

Once again, your burn is fine, and quite frankly, it doesn’t matter if your burn as 43 (I’ve seen burns with so few) or 1000 PIFs as they’re all very good values. When you get into the tens or maybe hundreds of thousands and with lines that exceed 4 that you need to start worrying.

What do you think of the MAXELL002 made in Japan dye in terms of longevity ? Will scans like that deteriorate ? Will this disc still be readable in 1 month ? :smiley: