Pioneer A06 / 106D warning

(I’ve posted it, by mistake, in the firmware forum, so re-posting it here)

I want to warn you about a problem occuring between the Pioneer DVR-106D and Fujifilm or Philips DVD+R (and maybe other brands, but I’ve wasted enough of these two to try another one). The copy process (CloneDVD) works fine but, at the end, the DVD+R is unreadable, even in the burner. I tried this with 3 different Pioneer 106/A06 units (flashed the latest firmware too), with the burner as single drive also, but no success. I tried to burn a DVD for backup purpose, using Nero, and it worked, so it is not a compatibility problem between the burner and the medium. I can, however, make a copy with CloneDVD on a DVD-R (Princo and Sony successfully tried) on the same system and it works fine.
I used DVD2one: same problem, but more explicit: after burning the DVD2one files to the DVD with Nero, I was able to watch the movie, but NOT until the end. Player AND PC DVD are not able to reach the end of the movie!
The guys at Elby told me they’ve heard that from others.
Pioneer “support” told me they never heard about that.
THERE IS, obviously, a compatibility problem with +R media AND videos DVD with that unit.
I use, at home, a Nec without any problem.

My advice: keep away from that drive, buy Nec 1300A or Sony DRU-510.

Originally posted by Thunderace1k
[B](I’ve posted it, by mistake, in the firmware forum, so re-posting it here)

I want to warn you about a problem occuring between the Pioneer DVR-106D and Fujifilm or Philips DVD+R (and maybe other brands, but I’ve wasted enough of these two to try another one). The copy process (CloneDVD) works fine but, at the end, the DVD+R is unreadable, even in the burner. I tried this with 3 different Pioneer 106/A06 units (flashed the latest firmware too), with the burner as single drive also, but no success. I tried to burn a DVD for backup purpose, using Nero, and it worked, so it is not a compatibility problem between the burner and the medium. I can, however, make a copy with CloneDVD on a DVD-R (Princo and Sony successfully tried) on the same system and it works fine.
I used DVD2one: same problem, but more explicit: after burning the DVD2one files to the DVD with Nero, I was able to watch the movie, but NOT until the end. Player AND PC DVD are not able to reach the end of the movie!
The guys at Elby told me they’ve heard that from others.
Pioneer “support” told me they never heard about that.
THERE IS, obviously, a compatibility problem with +R media AND videos DVD with that unit.
I use, at home, a Nec without any problem.

My advice: keep away from that drive, buy Nec 1300A or Sony DRU-510. [/B]

While the problem you have may be valid, suggesting that is a global problem and recommending another drive instead is not logical nor based on any substancial proof.

I have many many different burners and media here and so far have been unable to fault the 106d in any way at all it performs fine.

not playing to the end is classic symptom of bad media. DVD-Video also uses UDF and depending on which version of nero you are writing them with, especially to +R can make a big difference in playability.

Deal with your own particular issues and warn others of possible compatability problems fine, but dont extend that to recommending a different drive over another one.

cheers
nicw
author DvdinfoPro

Originally posted by n icw
[B]While the problem you have may be valid, suggesting that is a global problem and recommending another drive instead is not logical nor based on any substancial proof.

I have many many different burners and media here and so far have been unable to fault the 106d in any way at all it performs fine.

not playing to the end is classic symptom of bad media. DVD-Video also uses UDF and depending on which version of nero you are writing them with, especially to +R can make a big difference in playability.

Deal with your own particular issues and warn others of possible compatability problems fine, but dont extend that to recommending a different drive over another one.

cheers
nicw
author DvdinfoPro [/B]

Hmmmm…

Bad media ?
They work fine on a NEC 1300A !
And if it’s sensitive to bad medium, it shouldn’t work with the Princos then…

You haven’t experience problem with your 106D yet ? Could you try to copy a DVD on a +R medium with CloneDVD and let us know the result ?

I understand there can be compatibility problems with +R media.
But Pioneer claims it’s -R/+R and most of the people who will buy this unit will want to copy their DVDs.

As for the burning with Nero, I’ve used version 6.011.

Hoping to read from you soon…

Bad media ?
They work fine on a NEC 1300A !
And if it’s sensitive to bad medium, it shouldn’t work with the Princos then…

There are far too many variables here to make such statements.

You haven’t experience problem with your 106D yet ? Could you try to copy a DVD on a +R medium with CloneDVD and let us know the result ?

Sure I made a copy of an original DVD using the latest version of cloneDVD I could find V1.2.8.4

I burned it to the following DVD+R using the Pioneer 106D Firmware 1.06.

Ricoh Branded 2.4x DVD+R
Ricoh Branded 4x DVD+R
Beall Unbranded 4x DVD+R
Ritek Unbranded 2.4x DVD+R

Each played without issue, I especially looked for problems on outer chapters yet saw not a single issue on any

Read tested on:

Pioneer 535 DVD Player
Hyundai 360a DVD Player
XMS1050 DVD Player
Pioneer 105 DVD-RW burner
Pioneer A05 DVD-RW burner
Pioneer 106D DVD-+RW burner
Ricoh 5240 DVD+RW burner
Sony 500AX DVD-+RW burner
Optorite DD0201 DVD-+RW burner

I understand there can be compatibility problems with +R media.
But Pioneer claims it’s -R/+R and most of the people who will buy this unit will want to copy their DVDs.

As stated I have done extensive testing of the 106D while developing the program and know of no compatibility issues with the 106D on +R media which I can attribute the 106D.

A while ago outer track read issues were seen on a couple of media sample types sent to me from manufacturers in Korea. These gave problems in outer tracks. They also showed the exact same problems when burned on the Pioneer, Ricoh, Sony, and Optorite drives. The sample burns were returned to the media manufacturers and replacment samples seem to have corrected the issues.

If you are having problems with a few media then I suggest that is where the problems lay or the readers you are using are especially susceptible to problems with +R. I know of no such problems and via the many thousands of users of my program no such problems have been communcated to me.

As for the burning with Nero, I’ve used version 6.011.

I do have however have tons and tons of compatibility issue emails with users using Nero any version. Most of which were fixed by the user switching the Record Now DX or Max

Cheers
nicw

I have had VERY similar problems with the pioneer 106D and cloneDVD. See my thread here http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73052 . There is obviously a problem somewhere.

Originally posted by slysy
I have had VERY similar problems with the pioneer 106D and cloneDVD. See my thread here http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73052 . There is obviously a problem somewhere.

Then all I can suggest is to try another app and lets prove its a cloneDVD problem on some computers.

Try using the latest version of dvdshrink and burn the files with record now (nero if you must) and see how it goes.

cheers
nicw

Originally posted by n icw
[B]Then all I can suggest is to try another app and lets prove its a cloneDVD problem on some computers.

Try using the latest version of dvdshrink and burn the files with record now (nero if you must) and see how it goes.

cheers
nicw [/B]

I already tried it with nero recode, and it seemed to solve the problem. Although I did not check to see if the disc played all the way through. I assumed the problem was some sort of incompatibility between the media, the drive and cloneDVD (although it is hard to tell which is at fault). Unfortunately I dont have any of the media left to try (they werent working properly with my software so I just switched to dvd-r).

Originally posted by slysy
I already tried it with nero recode, and it seemed to solve the problem. Although I did not check to see if the disc played all the way through. I assumed it was some sort of incompatibility between the media, the drive and cloneDVD. Unfortunately I dont have any of the media left to try (they werent working properly with my software so I just switched to dvd-r)

I have only ever used cloneDVD in that one test requested earlier and it seemed to be ok. I will however go deeper into it and check to see he is writing the +R media properly and see if I can locate an error when using it.

I think we seem to be talking about a program problem here not a drive problem though which makes my original post valid. Even if the problem was only on one drive, one cannot blame a drive or suggest a different brand drive for a bug in someone elses program.

cheers
nicw

Originally posted by n icw
[B]I have only ever used cloneDVD in that one test requested earlier and it seemed to be ok. I will however go deeper into it and check to see he is writing the +R media properly and see if I can locate an error when using it.

I think we seem to be talking about a program problem here not a drive problem though which makes my original post valid. Even if the problem was only on one drive, one cannot blame a drive or suggest a different brand drive for a bug in someone elses program.

cheers
nicw [/B]

I do agree I think it is a cloneDVD problem. The original poster said that using nero it was unreadable towards the end, but that could just be bad media. Maybe the problem is (for whatever reason) with some brands of dvd+r and cloneDVD only?

Any chance Ollie could comment on this? It might help us solve the problem.

Originally posted by n icw
[B]

As stated I have done extensive testing of the 106D while developing the program and know of no compatibility issues with the 106D on +R media which I can attribute the 106D.

[/B]

One thing, Nic: is your 106D a sample or did you buy it in a shop ?

Originally posted by slysy
I do agree I think it is a cloneDVD problem. The original poster said that using nero it was unreadable towards the end, but that could just be bad media. Maybe the problem is (for whatever reason) with some brands of dvd+r and cloneDVD only?

For me, a bad media has to be reported as bad on every burner.
If not, it’s a compatibility problem. I want to spot that these (Fuji and Philips) are not low quality media and they work fine on my NEC 1300A, with the same programs.

I have just tested some arita 4x DVD+R that I burned with my 106D and nero recode. I can confirm that they play fine the whole way through, though the same brand of discs were unplayable when burned using cloneDVD. Given this information, surely theres no other explanation other than its a problem specific to cloneDVD?

Originally posted by Thunderace1k
For me, a bad media has to be reported as bad on every burner.
If not, it’s a compatibility problem. I want to spot that these (Fuji and Philips) are not low quality media and they work fine on my NEC 1300A, with the same programs.

How many times does it need to be said that there are too many variables and possibilities here to make such a bold statements.

What you are saying its simply not correct. Bad/faulty media will NOT give the exact same results on every burner or reader. Have you done any PI PO error tests on that media? Have you reproduced the fault on more than one computer and more than one 106D?

As the source of your problem is unknown you cannot jump to the conclusions that you are doing. All tests done so far seem point to cloneDVD being possibly faulty on some +R thats all, and even then I have not seen that all +R on my 106D under your same circumstances do not show your problems.

The condition and state of the computer containing the 106D giving problems for you is unknown to us. We however cannot reproduce your fault, and quite the reverse more than one unit seem to perform ok and no faults were perceived.

cheers
nicw

Originally posted by n icw
[B]How many times does it need to be said that there are too many variables and possibilities here to make such a bold statements.

What you are saying its simply not correct. Bad/faulty media will NOT give the exact same results on every burner or reader. Have you done any PI PO error tests on that media? Have you reproduced the fault on more than one computer and more than one 106D?

As the source of your problem is unknown you cannot jump to the conclusions that you are doing. All tests done so far seem point to cloneDVD being possibly faulty on some +R thats all, and even then I have not seen that all +R on my 106D under your same circumstances do not show your problems.

The condition and state of the computer containing the 106D giving problems for you is unknown to us. We however cannot reproduce your fault, and quite the reverse more than one unit seem to perform ok and no faults were perceived.

cheers
nicw [/B]

Would it be possible perhaps for you to test with any of the media we have had problems with such as 4X Fujifilm, Philips, or Arita DVD+R? Just a thought as you mentioned you had many types of media.

Originally posted by n icw
[B].

Have you reproduced the fault on more than one computer and more than one 106D?

nicw [/B]

As stated in my original post, I’ve tried with 3 different 106D and 1 A06 units on 2 different computers (both P4 2.4) with the exact same results.

You didn’t reply: is yours a production unit or a sample ?

Originally posted by Thunderace1k
[B]As stated in my original post, I’ve tried with 3 different 106D and 1 A06 units on 2 different computers (both P4 2.4) with the exact same results.

You didn’t reply: is yours a production unit or a sample ? [/B]

The unit here is a production unit with Firmware 1.06. If you have tried different hardware then the problem would most probably lay in software. Remember that each drive is different and has different burning routines for it.

In my own program drives are handled differently due to their vastly different firmwares. The fact then your software combo happens to work on the NEC is more luck than anything else.

cheers
nicw
author dvdinfopro
www.dvdinfopro.com

Originally posted by slysy
I have just tested some arita 4x DVD+R that I burned with my 106D and nero recode. I can confirm that they play fine the whole way through, though the same brand of discs were unplayable when burned using cloneDVD. Given this information, surely theres no other explanation other than its a problem specific to cloneDVD?

How big was the resulting file you wanted to burn? Less than 1 GByte?

Originally posted by Olli
How big was the resulting file you wanted to burn? Less than 1 GByte?

Nope, the video filled the DVD

Originally posted by n icw
[B]How many times does it need to be said that there are too many variables and possibilities here to make such a bold statements.

What you are saying its simply not correct. Bad/faulty media will NOT give the exact same results on every burner or reader. Have you done any PI PO error tests on that media? Have you reproduced the fault on more than one computer and more than one 106D?

As the source of your problem is unknown you cannot jump to the conclusions that you are doing. All tests done so far seem point to cloneDVD being possibly faulty on some +R thats all, and even then I have not seen that all +R on my 106D under your same circumstances do not show your problems.

The condition and state of the computer containing the 106D giving problems for you is unknown to us. We however cannot reproduce your fault, and quite the reverse more than one unit seem to perform ok and no faults were perceived.

cheers
nicw [/B]

Well Nic, the fact here is that we have different point of view: you are certainly right on a technical basis but, as a computer shop manager, I have to advise our customers in a practical way too.
They wouldn’t - and probably you wouldn’t either - accept the fact that we sell them blank DVDs which “might or not work”, stating that “Bad/faulty media will NOT give the exact same results on every burner or reader”. For me, for them, there are good media (the ones that work) and bad ones, the others… Until now, we never had a complaint with +R Fujifilm medias (manufacturer: Ricohjpn).
So, when we encountered that problem with the 106D, well, true, we finally blamed the burner, after taking care of testing several 106D/A06 burners on different computers and with different programs.
Easy conclusion? Maybe, but what else could we say to someone complaining that he can’t use the best DVD copy program and his new burner with ?

Why aren’t you able to reproduce that problem? Well, I don’t know, but maybe we’ll see a light coming from this forum…

Anyway, no hard feelings here of course, rather a big thank you for your help and interest in this problem.

Take care.

…SNIP Easy conclusion? Maybe, but what else could we say to someone complaining that he can’t use the best DVD copy program and his new burner with ?

All you said is fair enough. If the Fuji’s are truly RICOHJPNR00 then I can categorically state there are absolutely no issues with that media and the a06/106 there have literally been thousands of tests across hundreds of users while writing v1 and v2 of my program.

the problem then lies elsewhere. I am troubled that you think the cloneDVD is the “best” copier out there. That is far from a fact yet, and given the few tests done by a few users over the last 24 hours certainly seems to show it being problematic.

The most compatible software at this point in time you can suggest for you customers to burn with is Record Now, this has come from an uncountable number of tests.

As for the rip software dvdshrink would seem to be a good alternative, just as easy to use if not easier, does not require rip first as cloneDVD does and gives more options.

tests will continue of course.

cheers
nicw