Pioneer 112/112D/112L PIF Spikes should NOT be ignored!

I’m very grateful DrageMester suggested I run some tests on the PIF spikes produced by this 112D drive.

Just when I was ready to start using this drive for my backups, instead of my LiteOn or LG, I find that this drive is not all it’s cracked up to be. The PIF spikes are definitely affecting the readability of the discs, which may ultimately cause lost data or jerky playback. I can’t afford to scan every backup disc to see if there are spikes and even if I did, I’d be forced to do the entire backup again, if I found any. :frowning:

It’s produced the spikes with all versions of Pioneer firmware I’ve tried and with several different media types. See the 112D/L scans thread for other examples. When I get time I’ll list some MIDs and burn speeds that they occurred at, in this thread.

The media affected appears to be DVD+R burned at 16x and 18x. Here’s the media and firmware that I’ve had out of spec PIF spikes with:
Verbatim MCC004 at 18x - 112D 1.21
Verbatim MCC004 at 18x - 112L 8.21
Verbatim MCC004 at 18x - 112L 1.22
Laser MCC004 at 18x - 112D 1.21
OEM SONYD21 at 18x - 112L 8.21

Laser MCC004 at 16x - 112L 1.22
BenQ DAXONAZ3 at 16x - 112D 1.21
OEM SONYD21 at 16x - 112D 1.22

Here’s one of the discs with PIF spikes, scanned in a LiteOn 5S drive:

This disc were burned at which speed?

I think you’re being paranoid.

No offense, but you people rely on scans too much and from my expierence they aren’t usually as correct as people assume them to be. I’ve had some pretty bad scans and they all work fine and have worked fine for years. shrug

18x. You can see it on the quality scan. :wink:

Thanks C0deKing!

Maybe that is something that needs to be fixed, at least a good start to talk abot I think. :sunglasses:

Dug out an old disk stuffed in a binder and no longer cared about.

Burned by a rebadged lite-on on 14 Jun 2004. CMC MAG F01

I just finished copying the disks over and testing them with the provided par file and they all check out fine and yet look at the scan? This is exactly why I don’t rely on scans. People could be throwing out perfectly good disks for no reason. Sigh.

I never really thought too much about those thin 4-5 level PIF spikes because they don’t appear @ 12x or lower. 16x burns can produce spikes like that, too, and on a variety of media… not sure whether this happened with my 111L as well. I think I’ll dig out some Daxon SONYD21 and see what my scanning drives think of 'em.

I wish I had been able to see that by my 12th post. Guess I’m just slow. :doh:

Do you have a BenQ DW1655 or DW1650 available? Those drives are very sensitive to relinking problems, and might completely fail to read sectors around relinking points (not just in a TRT).

The TRT slowdowns in your example are clearly located at the PIF spikes, but they’re not nearly as bad as relinking problems caused by e.g. NEC ND-3550…4551 series drives or my Matshita UJ-840S laptop drive.

Perhaps you remember my old thread about relinking problems and TRT?

Crazy LiteOn 1635S Read Transfer benchmarks

I don’t know what to think. Even this crappy NEC detects spikes in TRT.

…or it could ignore the PIF spikes reported by the Litey completely. :confused: I didn’t expect that. Thinking back, I don’t recall if I ever saw a BenQ report those PIF spikes–just my 165P6S and 20A1P.

MCC-004 (CMC, early 2005) burned @ 18x w/ Pio 112L fe 8.21

Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t referring to the BenQ DW1655/1650 being very sensitive to relinking problems during a Disc Quality Scan - I was referring to these drives being very sensitive to relinking problems during actual reading, such as e.g. Transfer Rate Tests, ScanDisc and other types of actual reading.

These BenQ drives can fail to read discs that show no POF or even PIF at the same location in a scan as demonstrated here.

What I’m suggesting is that you use a BenQ DW1655/1650 for performing a TRT on DVDs that show relinking spikes, to see if the relinking spike is harmless or evil. These BenQ drives should be even more sensitive to such problems than LiteOn 5S/6S series drives.

I completely misunderstood. :slight_smile: And yes, the 1650 is the fussiest TRT drive I have.

Here ya go. Pardon the USB connection, please.

I’ll try the BenQ DW1655 tomorrow and report back. Thanks for the link. It was good to revisit it and it demonstates the issue very well. :iagree:

I’ve updated the first post with the DVD+R media that I’ve personally experienced results having the PIF spikes.


Just my 2 cents here.
I was getting these spikes at 16X & 18X
I burn mostly -R’s, with my 112D if I burn at 12X I never get a spike and the drive seems to burn at 16X? Disc burns in approx 6:15 @12X which is faster then my Liteon burns the same media at 16X.
For my drive 12X seems to be the key.

I personally prefer 8x. Just to be on the safe side.

i do them at 12x. my 112d starts acting funny at 18x

I’m sure if I burned all my media at 8x then I wouldn’t have a problem either but that’s beside the point. This drive is sold as an 18x burner and it does not appear to be able to do this properly and not 16x either. In other words it’s a defective drive.

If I used a program that didn’t allow me to set the burn speed and inserted some very good quality Verbatim MCC004, the chances are I would end up with a sub standard burn that may not be able to be read in some drives or players.

I think Pioneer needs to take a very good look at this and if there is no solution then I think they have a bigger problem than the failing CD-R problem…

I’m not suggesting these spikes can be ignored, and i would rather they were not there.
I can recall only 3 discs which produced these spikes of the many discs i’ve burned at 18x on this drive (one of them here).

I’ve found for both NEC/Optiarc and Pioneer drives that occasionally (for me) produce these spikes, that providing they are not above 7 in value they never cause a problem for me in any set top player i have.

For data DVD’s i more or less only use an NEC/Optiarc drive for reading data discs and this drive doesn’t seem to be affected by these spikes (haven’t tested them on another reader).

^ Unfortunately your experience doesn’t seem to be the case for me and others. :wink: I’m getting them on just about every DVD+R burned at 16x or 18x (see the first post and the 112D scans thread).

I guess the problem is that a PIF spike of 5 in only 2 away from 7, whereas a PIF of the more normal (2) is 5 away. So for me these disc are just too dangerous to rely on…