PIF means data Loss?

i know the definition of PIF and the whole point of piff is that its a read failure.

So if you burned a movie or data and have a piff failure, does that mean that that data is now lost?

possible test?
burn a file you downloaded with BT and see how many PIFs you get.
then copy it back to the hard drive and see if the BT will recognize it as the original…

Note: BT has hashing built in so it auto checks.

:disagree: Some technical info so you can get a better understanding. http://forum.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=80545 Having a PIF absolutely does NOT mean a read failure of the data (a simple way to describe it would be that they are ‘correctable’ errors in data, up until they accumulate to the point of becoming uncorrectable by the error correction), it actually takes quite a number of PIFs to cause an actual read error and inability to properly read the data.

let me restate :o

“1 time with PI/PO sum set to 1 ECC to get a result comparable to the MAX 4 PI Uncorrectable (Called PO in K-Probe) per block standard.”

this is the the inability of a drive to read the datta, correct?
if so, then is it not almost ( other drives might be able to) the same as data that is lost?

PIF = Parity Inner Failure. They uncorrected PIEs. DVD has sturdy error correction, so this second level of correction kicks in. By no means do PIFs mean a data error on the disc - IN fact if you take commercial DVDs you will see tons of PIFs yet the data integrity is intact.

What you should look out for are POFs (not to confuse with PIFs) you NEVER want to see a single POF on your DVD. As far as PIFs, as long as your individual count is 4 and below you are fine - I have seen cases where the individual PIF is much higher yet still readable on a PC.

That the way I understand it. :iagree:

No, PIF does not mean data loss. Other than seeing an instance or more of POF on Nero CD-DVD Speed “Disk Quality” scans, the only other way you might have data loss is if you run a Scandisk on the same scan utilty and you get ‘red’ blocks indicating bad blocks, although the ‘yellow’ indicating ‘damaged’ would likely mean data loss as well. Finally, a bad Transfer Rate test (under the “Benchmark” tab), where there is a MAJOR dip downwards will indicate read trouble and perhaps mean that DVD will have a shorter lifespan and require reburning… However, this won’t show up as “data loss,” just as a read problem on your DVD burner, and possibly won’t show up on your DVD player (unless of course there’s enough of a problem to warrant it), since it plays at 1x

i mis spoke a bit in the topic, i did mean POFs

but the main question is this…
these errors, PIs, which the drive can correct, and POs, which the drive cannot correct, right? these erros deal with data integrity?

you might think of this as a abstarct question.
I know that some drives will get POs even with factory sealed disks, but then when you extract the info from it, what guarantee do you have that it will work?

i mean lets face it, i know i have some old CDs around with so many scratches that the error count would probably be off the charts! but i can still install programs from them. What gives?

i see the PO errors as sort of bad sectors on a hard drive.
i have seen burns of the 1640 with 100 POs and the new lite-Ons 165H6S? seem to be close behind… but that kind of burn is not common, how do we get by?

You are right; once you get a POF (Parity Outer Failure), that means both the inner and outer correction stages were applied, and that error is completely uncorrectable. :iagree:

If you can extract information from CD/DVD media with POFs, then count yourself lucky, and if you can, make a good backup of it on quality media (like Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim, especially the MCC004 (16x DVD+R), which seems to be a pretty consistent performer right now). Your ability to extract information will depend on how bad the scratching is, and how good your particular drive is at reading scratched media and still letting you read, retrieve and copy the information for backup purposes.

Scratches can inhibit the drive reading the information, and you might hear the drive slow down to try to read it in that section. Some drives are better readers than others when reading scratched disks like that. From what I remember a Plextor 716a is good for that, although I’ve read a lot about LG drives reading some of the worst damaged items, therefore letting someone copy the content, back it up and reburn to a quality media.

As Quema34 said “POF” errors are the unreadable errors. These are the ones you don’t want any of. Sounds like you are using KProbe so here is an example of where you don’t want any errors.

WOW Woble!
thats a freaking good burn!

Ok so now your story changes - POFs are no good, PIE/PIFs are ok :slight_smile:

That scan of his is not uncommon for a good Taiyo Yuden ! I get similar scans with my TYs, :smiley: