Older writers better for CD-R?


#1

I am curious if it’s worth using a old Lite-On 24102b (24x10x40) for burning CD-R’s (more specifically AUDIO CD’s) or am i better off using one of my more recent ones which are…

-Sony Optiarc 7240S
-Lite-On iHAS324

because i can use that old Lite-On 24102b drive in my current PC as i put in a PCI-E add-on card years ago that has one IDE port on it (and 2x SATA ports (these are what i got the 7240s/iHAS324 drives connected to)). or are modern burners just superior?


#2

Maybe some of the guys here who actually burn Audio-CDs can tell you more about this, but my experience is that:

All my actual DVD-writers make good results if I´m using “newer” CD-Rs which are specified 40x or highr. But with older media it is often problematic because a good writing-strategy is missing; in this case most DVD-writers only offer one writing speed, mostly 16x, sometimes 24x. Do you have older/exotic media an old CD-R-writer is mostly the better one for burning.

But at the end it depends on the player-hardware, it´s maybe the most important part if playing Audio-CD-Rs. My CD-player which is over 20 years old is more problematic than actual BD-players


#3

@ Tester_1

Well i know some of the discs ill be using soon are basically generic discs (i.e. Precision CD-R 700MB/80Min is on the surface of them) that i have had since likely back in the 2000’s decade, probably early-to-mid 2000’s or so (i doubt they are from the 2010’s decade). i only got about 10-20 of these discs left.

i did burn some of these (Precision) recently on that Lite-On 24102b drive (i think that CD burner has got a Mfg Date of 2001, maybe 2002) @ 8x and they seemed to play okay in a car CD player and a old home CD player we had since around 1992. i was just curious if i am better off using that or one of my much newer DVD burners to burn AUDIO CD’s.

also, i do have some MITSUI discs which i got at the recommendation of this site many years ago i think. i think i paid $40 or so for 100 of them sometime back around the early 2000’s. i still have most of these left.

so with that said, i imagine given the above info… i am probably better off using that older Lite-On 24102b drive for recording on those older CD-R’s(?). but lets say i bought a newer batch of Verbatim CD-R’s in the future… it safe to assume these would be totally okay on a fairly modern/modern DVD burner for burning a basic AUDIO CD?

p.s. the last i knew this site recommended Verbatim/Taiyo Yuden discs in general for quality and i would imagine if i were to buy some CD-R’s today i would assume Verbatim CD-R’s would be the best all around choice given they are more reasonably price than Taiyo Yuden discs. i still have a lot of my Taiyo Yuden DVD recordables which at this point in time i strictly only use those for important data backup like family pics/vids because for most data it’s just far more economical to use hard drives given they are far cheaper right now than recordable DVD’s for similar price range as there is no way you can find 2TB worth of DVD’s for $45. plus, not to mention the speed of data access advantages. but i guess in terms of more long term very important data storage, i would imagine the quality recordable DVD’s would be more trustworthy.


#4

Like I said, for older CD-R-media which are rated at lower speeds your CD-writer should be the better choice, if it is in good condition.

You can also use a burn-software or a tool like Nero CDSpeed, insert one of your old CD-R in the DVD-writers and take a look at the writing-speeds which are supported. If only one or two speeds are supported the DVD-writer will use an standard, non-specific-media write strategy, so better don´t use that media on it.

Verbatim have many lines of CD-R-media, you should take a look at the package if the word “Azo” is written or not. My last batch of Verbatim was cheapest media with MBI-ATIP.

Newer TY-media is made by CMC, which is not bad IMHO but not the same like original-TY.

I guess newer players don´t have big prolems with most media, older drives can be more problematic. The last time I had problems like this was with a cheap Cyberhome DVD-standalone and a 40x burned 12x-media from Vivastar. The first tracks were OK, but since title four I heard awful noises in the tracks, last tracks were unplayable

I would say buy some smaller packs of media, burn it, test it on your players and you will see if it works :wink:

I know in the past many ppl said only burn 4x or something and it works, but thats not true. I remember a VW-car-CD-player which only played Audio-CD-R which are burned on a slimtype with max. speed (24x), slower burned media it don´t recognize.
And a Philips Ghettoblaster read a Audio-CD I tried without problem, some hours later it don´t recognized it. Nothing had changed, the media was all the time in the machine.

So there´s no law which combination of medie/burner/burnspeed works everywhere :slight_smile: , try and see


#5

so basically as a general guideline… i am best off going with the Lite-On 24102b drive over my semi-modern DVD burners for general audio CD’s, especially with that old generic media.

thanks for the info as given your experiences things can be a bit of a crap-shoot at times.

but one thing i notice is that my newer DVD burners occasionally have issues recognizing store bought Audio CD’s. i want to say the 7240S drive has more issues with those than the iHAS324 though. my guess is that old Lite-On 24102b won’t have any issues seeing store bought audio CD’s. but when it comes to burned media i am pretty sure 7240s/iHAS324 are totally fine there.

also, i removed the Lite-On 24102b drive out of the old PC earlier and the mfg date on the drive is Dec 2001.

also, loading up Nero DiscSpeed v7.0.2.100 and checking supported write speeds on my two DVD burner drives (and the old CD-RW drive) for those generic Precision CD-R’s…

7240S = 8x, 16x, 24x, 32x, 40x, 48x
iHAS324 = 8x, 16x, 24x, 32x (this drive is actually newer than my 7240s as i bought it at a later date and it supports up to 48x CD-R writing in general. basically only reason i got this drive in the first place was for burning backup’s of XBox360 games as it’s got custom firmware on it so it can overburn a bit etc)
24102b = 8x, 16x, 20x, 24x

so given this info i assume those two DVD burner drives do have a decent writing strategy for these generic media since it’s more than two speeds?

NOTE: mfg of those Precision discs = Prodisc

p.s. one thing i know 4x burning is required, which i originally thought was BS, is… ‘Heimdall’s XBox Engineering Disc’ for the original XBox console (like once you TSOP it, that disc won’t boot without being burned at 4x). If i recall correctly, i think DVD-R discs are required to (that’s what the one i have that’s working is burned to). but then again it seems those old Thomson DVD-ROM drives, which are in many original XBox consoles, are pretty much crap (which most of the XBox consoles i have got that drive in it but one i got has a Samsung which is not picky and i am pretty sure that Samsung is considered the best drive for original XBox console). also, i am using good quality media to with Verbatim. but this is not a issue for me anyone as i don’t really use those XBox consoles at this point in time even though i got like five of them around the house as two have a mod-chip and the other three are TSOP(basically like a modchip since it flashed the on-board bios basically). basically they are good media players for old TV is about it now as they will pretty much play any standard def video well enough.

side note: there is quite a bit more weight to that old Lite-on CD burner vs those other two more modern DVD burners i have as those feel light in comparison.


#6

Yes, those speed-selections means the DVD-writers know this ATIP from your Precison media. Still I guess not all selectable write speeds are optimized for specific media, but the highest available speed should be, otherwise only low speeds would be available.

But I repeat, the CD-R-player could still be the crucial instance.

Maybe your original-Audio-CD-Rs are copy-protected by something which your 24102B could be handle, actual drives not


#7

I don’t know if the Lite-On 24102b can properly do disc quality check scans but here is what that Nero DiscSpeed shows…

That was burned on the 24102b drive hours ago @ 8x on those discs i mentioned above. i even scanned another disc, although it was burned with the same drive but in my old computer (before i put it into my main computer), and it’s scan was a bit different but largely the same as it was pretty steadily low until about the 65min range and then it shoots up to 40-80 range mostly for the C1 errors.

as for the optimized for specific media thing… i might have had a issue on one of my older CD players which i want to say i got Christmas 1993 but i think if i slowed down write speed it helped.

as for the original audio CD’s being copy protected… that’s unlikely as they are largely in the 1990’s. plus, the ones that are copy protected out there, don’t they usually mention something about the copy protection stuff on the CD case?


#8

The C1 is a bit high, maybe you should scan at lower speed, like 16x

And yes, usually a copy protection is mentioned on the CD-case, mostly in very small letters


#9

Hell, i wonder if that drive is even reliable (like as far as reading C1 etc info) as when i slow down read speed it gets worse, at least with initial spike. then i stopped and did it again, and you start seeing C2 errors etc. makes me wonder if this drive is flaky when it comes to these tests. so i tried the Lite-On iHAS324, and @16x like you suggested, and got much better results…

p.s. for whatever it’s worth all three drives (7240s/iHAS324/24102b) are all on the controller card (2 SATA ports/1 IDE) in my main PC.


#10

The controller shouldn´t make differences there.

Sometimes I have problems at scanning with LiteOn-drives if it still speeds up after begin of the scan, sometimes it helps to increase the speed up time in CDpeed, sometimes it helps to stop scan at begin and start it immedieately again.

This result looks to good, I´m not sure how good the 324 can scan CD-R, I´m still using old Benq 1640 for this


#11

Yeah, that’s what i thought on that scan as it does seem too good especially for generic media. so basically, from what you can tell, the scans with the 24102b are probably more in the ball park of what the discs are really scanning like? ; but even if that’s true, it makes you wonder what the deal is with those scans fluctuating a good amount especially when the C2 errors showed up as those should generally be 0 errors on the C2 at all times(otherwise you might have corrupt data/bad burn), correct?

I know my old Lite-On 1673S, which is in my old PC, worked well with Kprobe but that was only for DVD recordable media i think.

but i increased speed up time from the default of 10seconds to 15seconds and here is what i got with a 16x read on the 24102b drive… basically there is a large initial spike of 1053 at beginning but after that it’s hard to say where things are largely at given things are really small in the picture now because of that initial big spike. but the average C1 errors are pretty low (so i would assume the disc is fine) @ 1.54 average with 7138 total C1 errors. might have been a good scan outside of the initial big spike which i am guessing is not there(?).

p.s. only other CD-RW drive i got is a HP which i think is 8x write speed. i doubt this is better than my 24102b burner. so basically just these five drives is what i got in total.


#12

It´s pretty hard to compare drives which are differ so many generations.

Every drive is different, so low errors at scanning doesn´t mean every drive like it :wink:

The old CD-RW-drives I know were mostly made by Philips (many small airflow-slots on front) or Sony (4 big slots). I think it won´t scan at all


#13

Yeah, but i guess those drives that can check basic errors on a disc are still some sort of ball park estimate on how good the disc is as even if they don’t play in all AUDIO CD players, as long as the burn quality is up to a certain standard you can be sure you could always make a copy of it etc if need be (even though lately i ripped my audio cd’s to FLAC and and keeping the FLAC files on the hard drive).

but thanks for all of the help/advice.

p.s. now i am going to have to bite the bullet and start backing up some of my more important family pics/videos as i have not been doing that since Dec 2012 and i have a fair amount more stuff to backup. while i got two copies of pretty much all of that stuff on two separate internal hard drives ill feel much safer having a couple more on DVD’s (i.e. 1 on Verbatim and 1 on Taiyo Yuden). plus, while it does not happen much i have seen a small amount of pictures randomly corrupt on a hard drive in the past and i think if i had copies on DVD’s before those handful here and there acted up i could likely recover those pictures. it’s going to be time consuming but it will be worth organizing things, as short of a house fire, the odds of me losing anything are very slim with having things setup like i do (four copies, with one on one hard drive and one on another with the Verb/TY combo).


#14

I think also it´s the best way to use different media and have more than one copy :wink:


#15

Yeah, but that’s only on stuff that’s the “can’t afford to lose type of thing” like family photos/videos (and the like) as it’s kinda of a pain to do but it’s not worth rolling the dice on stuff you would greatly dislike if you lost it.

but for stuff i would be a bit upset if i lost but would not be a show stopper… i tend to just go with a more simple one copy on one hard drive and another copy on another hard drive (probably even safer is one hard drive is only connected when needing to backup data and then disconnecting it when your done(less chance of virus etc getting to it)) which should give solid protection against data loss from a basic hard drive failure or some virus type of thing.


#16

I have a long history with storage, had/have many HDDs, CD-Rs, DVD-Rs and BD-Rs. If I compare it, BD-Rs ist the worst media at all, although the marketing-ppl said the HTL-media is anorganic and much more reliable than other optical-media.

I think I have actually about 50 HDDs and proportionally this is the 2nd worse media, especially HDDs with 2 or less platters for 1TB. Not all failed HDDs were totally defect, but sometimes it´s bad enough if some data can´t be read.

I had also some failures on SSDs, my most expensive SSD failed after less than 200 hours. At least I don´t have a big history with it, but it´s not my favorite media for important data. Also because a involuntary erase can´t be revoked.

DVD and CD seems to m´be very reliable. I have hundreds of CD and think around 1000 DVDs and proportionally less failures than with other storage media. Some discs failed at burning, but I test all directly after the burn and so I sort it out and burn it again. I thew some away after years because a bad scan result, but mostly it were still (slow) readable.

And I think I wrote it here somewhere, sometimes I like a read-only-media


#17

Thanks for that info.

as far as myself… i have only had one hard drive die on me which i think people referred to as the ‘Deathstar’ (i.e. IBM Deskstar 40GB) as outside of this i never have had a hard drive fail even though i do have two current hard drives (200GB Seagate IDE/400GB Seagate SATA) that do have some bad blocks on those but seem to work fine at the moment. but i am cautious not to trust those two for anything too important. but outside of that all of my hard drives are still going strong which are…

2.5" = 160GB/160GB/80GB
3.5" = 250GB(WD)/1TB(Samsung)/2TB(Samsung)/2TB(Hitachi)/4TB(Seagate)/5TB(HGST). NOTE: the Hitachi/4TB Seagate/HGST are pretty new though but the others have plenty of age on them as they where running 24/7 for years and the 2TB Samsung still is even though the 250GB(WD)/1TB(Samsung), are semi-retired, as i use them as external backup storage on a USB 3.0 hard drive docking station now as i simply slide them into the docking station and power them up etc.

also, i got a old Maxtor 80GB which i had for ages and that still works (although it’s not seen regular usage for years now) and is in a original XBox console right now even though it was in my PC at one point. in another one of my XBox consoles is a 160GB (WD). both IDE. even have a old 80GB Seagate IDE (it’s still in use in my old PC) and a 10GB (not sure brand name off the top of my head) in a old Emachines PC. hell, i even kept a ancient 4xxMB Seagate hard drive from my first PC back in 1995 and the hard drive still functions as i used DBAN (Darik’s boot and nuke) on it not long ago and that went fine. but it was funny seeing write speed only around 2MB/s on that thing when DBAN was running.

but if i read your post correctly… are you saying Bluray recordable media is the least reliable for you? ; but that’s one thing i just never really got into as costs seem to be pretty steep the last i knew and if they don’t have CD/DVD reliability that makes them that much less appealing.

as for CD or DVD media… so far i have not had one fail on me. but now that you mentioned it… i am probably going be more careful to run a SHA-1 hash check (using 7-zip) on the burned DATA (against other copies i have) to make sure they match etc. but so far with recordable media… i don’t think i have noticed any that degrade to any higher degree especially since i largely stick with Verbatim brand. so i basically agree with you on the ‘very reliable’ comment on (quality)recordable CD/DVD media) as that’s why i still use them but only for files of high importance as it’s simply cheaper/more convenient to use hard drives nowadays for general data backup. but come to think of it, i used to have a fair amount of disc scans from years ago so if i scanned those disc years later i would have something to compare to but i don’t seem to have those files anymore. still, even running a scan with say Kprobe (i used Kprobe on a Lite-on 1673S mainly) years later should still give us a ball park figure on quality of the disc as i figure if a disc can go 5 years, maybe 10 years, without dropping off much it will probably hold up for our lifetime or close to it and like you say the whole ‘read only’ is a nice little bonus with recordable CD/DVD as you ain’t got to worry about anything getting deleted so as long as you take care of the disc you should be good for a long time to come.

as for SSD’s… i only had one of those and it’s in my main PC currently which is a Samsung 850 EVO 250GB which i had since May 2015 as that won’t die anytime soon (at least as far as failure from writes goes) as it’s rated for i think 75TB of writes and at my current rate ill be well over 10 years before i come close to that figure (it seems they will likely go beyond 75TB before actual failure occurs from what i have read). but i waited til the 250GB range SSD’s got reasonably priced (and more reliable) before jumping onto the SSD bandwagon. i have heard older SSD’s (say 64GB or so types) in general were quite unreliable. still, even though i do believe modern SSD’s are more reliable then they once were i still don’t trust them for anything important and i also trust regular hard drives more especially after i had a power outage in i think it was May 2016 that corrupted the Windows install on the SSD and, in short, i had to format and start from scratch and it’s been fine since. must have been a semi-rare bad luck. but i do know, at least the way i understand it, is that some SSD’s have capacitors in them and some do not and it appears my Samsung does not which the ones with capacitors are supposed to be more resistant to data corruption from a power outage as it buys the SSD drive a hair more time to finish any writes it may be doing when the power is pulled etc.

but since you said that involuntary erase can’t be revoked on SSD… that’s a good point but i think just straight up, at least from what i have heard, when SSD’s fail you don’t really get any warning where as with hard drives you probably will have some sort of warning before things are totally shot. basically until more time passes (say another 10+ years) and SSD’s prove reliable ill take my chances with a regular hard drive over a SSD for trusting anything important on there, especially after i had that, what i would assume was semi-rare, power outage that took out the SSD’s data as when i tried to boot windows it was all out of whack (basically could not load up windows). it’s the only time i ever had issues because of a power outage as normally it powers back on and all is fine (ill usually play it safe and run a quick error check though to make sure).

p.s. i have had more PSU’s fail on me than hard drives. only 1 hard drive died were as i have had 3 PSU’s fail. but so far my current PSU in my main PC is the longest lasting one as it’s nearly 5 years old as come to think of it, my warranty ends in about a week or two on that but i have faith it will last for a while more because it’s Seasonic brand and based on what i read around the time i got them they seem to have one of the lowest failure rates amongst PSU’s in general. but the PSU’s in the past that did fail on me, failed within about a year of the warranty ending. NOTE: i leave my PC on 24/7 outside of an occasional power down to blow out the dust etc as i try to blow out the dust in my PC at least twice a year or so.


#18

I also have old HDDs >250GB and that was a more reliable media than actual HDDs. If I buy a HDD, I always make immediately a full error-scan, so I identified a DOA. My last experience was last year with a Seagate, it worked for some weeks and some of the data weren´t readable. I often check SMART-parameters and I´m sure it helped me a lot, but even then some single data wasn´t readable.

My most bad experience with BD-R so far was mostly branded by real bad Ritek HTL-media. All discs were still recognized by my drives, but almost all discs were not completely readable after about 3 years

Remark: HTL is anorganic and should be much more reliable than organic-medie like BD-R LTH, DVD and CD-R. I know BD-R is more sensible at low/high temperatures, but I stored it like my other media. OK, if it would be only the Ritek-media I would say it´s a manufacturer-specific problem, but also some single CMC, TDK (made by FTI, i guess) and PHILIP-media (which seems to be produced by different manufacturers) failed after some years. And I start with BD-R in 2013.

At least BD-media is the cheapest media if you calculate the costs. 25pcs cakebox for <11€ , that means 625GB for 11€, 17,6€ for 1 TB

SSDs have also SMART-parameters, but it maybe can´t help because some things can´t be predicted. In the beginning mostly the controller-failed, this can´t be monitored. Shortly a SSD from sandisk killed the partition or data, no chance to revoke it. Same if you erase data (no use of recycle bin), even if you power off the SSD to prevent write-operations from Windows the data is destroyed. Tools like Recuva will show you the deleted files, can start a data recovery, even with original-size but my experience is: None of these files will be working/usable.
I had a Crucial MX300 525GB, start to copy data on it, check some days later the SMART-values and saw defect sectors. Couldn´t recover the data, but I had a backup. And yes, there was no sign you would know that the SSD had already a problem. Some HDDs slow down, let hang Windows or something and let you feel theres someting wrong


#19

Hell, speaking of that ‘no use of recycle bin’ thing… on a clean install of Windows 10 (16299.15(i.e. Oct 17th 2017 release)) it defaults to where if you simply press the delete key on a file it immediately sends it to the recycle bin instead of like previous versions of Windows where it asks if you want to send to the recycle bin. granted, you can turn it back to the old way (right click Recycle Bin and select Properties and at the bottom of that window CHECK the box that says “Display delete confirmation dialog” and click OK) but i think it’s a bad idea to change that default behavior.

since you brought up Crucial… i think Crucial is one of the brands that has those capacitors in them. but i don’t know if that’s all models or just some of them off the top of my head as i got this info based on reading reviews of them here and there.

as far as that BD-media being cheapest… i still can’t find Verbatim brand of DVD or BD that can give you the storage space of a 2TB Hitachi hard drive i can buy new online here in the USA…

-2TB Hitachi (7200rpm) hard drive = $45 (i have seen a 4TB Seagate for $100(which is the Seagate i got not all that long ago now)) NOTE: that’s the cheapest NEW 2TB hard drive i am aware of. it’s the one i bought nearly 1 year ago now (Dec 2016) as the only catch for that price is they only give you a 1 year warranty but i figure it’s worth the gamble as i suspect those drives are reliable.

-Verbatim BD 25GB media (50 pack) = $50-52 (only 1250GB) (from a quick look online. but even if you can find quality media at a decent discount, even if it’s roughly the same storage space/price, there is still ease-of-use/speed which the hard drive always wins here and if the BD media loses it’s reliability edge then the hard drive is definitely the better all around choice if you ask me. sure, the media would be read-only and all, which is potentially good, but you get the idea. but i feel that’s the only main advantage with recordable CD/DVD over hard drives in general is long term reliability at this point in time.

but if you mean BD media in comparison to regular DVD recordable then… yeah, your right. but even with this said… you don’t trust BD media for important can’t afford to lose data.

also, when i buy a hard drive… while i never used to do it, i run a full format on it now to help ensure there are no bad sectors etc. i have a feeling this is something a lot of people avoid simply because with these large capacity hard drives that burns up hours of time before you can actually use them. but it’s not worth taking chances. even with that said, i might still consider running a full surface disc scan once every couple of years or so.

but with your BD media not working after 3 years, that’s not looking good for BD media. but you said you have been in the BD game since 2013 which is a good 4+ years of experience so far for you. how is your overall BD collection doing? ; because even if the vast majority is still working, if you feel there is a decent chance the ones that are still working are degrading noticeably faster than DVD recordables then BD is definitely something ill avoid especially considering when i use recordable media i want something reliable as it’s a nice backup assist to hard drives for important data.


#20

Win8.1 have the same behaviour :slight_smile:

If you don´t want to use the Recycle Bin hold shift and press Del.

The MX-series should have capacitors to prevent loss data if it write and the power get lost. In my case simply some (thousand!) NAND-sectors were defect

Verbatim-branded CMC MAG BA5 media begins with a price around 25€ for 50 discs = 20€ for 1TB

The cheapest 2TB I find here costs around 55€

I know it´s not comparable, the speed difference is big, but sometimes I like media I can´t change the content or the data is not erasable :wink:

I use HD Tune to make a complete read test with new HDDs and look after that at SMART, works for me and it´s simple to handle

My 2013 burned RITEK are dead, I would say. Single exemplars are still readable in some drives but the read speed is very low. And I mentioned single discs from TDK, CMC and PHILIPR04 failed.

My Panasonic, SONY and Verbatim still look unproblematic but the error-rates decrease even with the media I handled very careful

I will take every 2nd year how the condition is with these media. On the Redfox-forum I read some ppl have >10 years old media which is unproblematic, but I guess it´s like the scan results on DVD-media. Older, expensive and (good) media was better than actual (cheaper) media

Actually I have some media which I burned first time this year, will next year take a look again how this media behave.

Because I record also sometimes HD-movies via my DVB-S2-receiver I have movies which are to big for DVD-media, even for DL. And DL is in realtion to SL-DVDs and BD-R very expensive if you want good media. Example: DVD+R DL with MCC-code starts here with prices of >26€ for 25 pcs