Dear All, It is with some great concern that I bring this news to you. I own an LG GGW-H20L Bluray Burner, and I burnt my first batch of discs - 40 x Ritek 2x BD-R’s under their own brand - all exactly 1.5 years ago, some with the YL03 firmware, and others with the YL02 firmware. About 1/2 a year ago, they still read back just fine. After burning they were tested to show all or mostly green under Scandisk. They were all stored in sleeves, vertically, in a light tight box in a 24 degree C controlled temperature environment, away from sun exposure. Today, I come to grab one of the discs from the initially burnt pile. 30 minutes of scanning and it’s still stuck in the first 0.5% of the disc. ALL RED. Filesystem all destroyed, nothing shows up anymore. A second disc was grabbed, ALL RED again. A third one … ALL RED. I cannot bother to go through all the pile, a pattern is forming. I implore all that have used the LG with Ritek 2x BD-Rs to check their discs, and let me know how it’s going. In the meantime, my TDK discs seem okay. But I’m starting to worry. This is leaving me a very bad feeling about my investment …
Oh and before anyone says it’s the drive or anything - the drive is just fine. My TDK discs come up all GREEN and happy. I’ve sampled another Ritek, all RED again. I sampled another Ritek, this one is all GREEN.
I’m thinking … maybe it’s burns with YL02 that have issues … anyone burnt Riteks with YL02?
Actually, I’ve also noticed some of my Ritek discs are a more darker brown-gold and some are a lighter caramel-gold, but this doesn’t … seem to affect it. Furthermore, I can’t verify the firmware thing - because now that I think about it - I had some discs burnt one after the other on the same firmware, one survived and one didn’t!
So, I’m lying. All of them aren’t dead. HALF of them are. I’ve got 4 good to 3 bad at the moment. The good ones can read at least the filesystem (haven’t the time for a full scan). The bad ones are totally unreadable. The investigation continues …
EDIT: Continuing investigation yields some discs which I consider “good” also are dying … they’re getting very YELLOW … at least the ones with dates in June 2008 for burn date. All were burnt with IMGburn on this very burner! The tally thus far 5 [B]completely dead[/B] to 9 not yet completely dead. The not yet completely dead consists of some dying discs … and were not completely scanned. Though I will proceed to do this when the news breaks
EDIT EDIT: To save me from being ridiculous and putting out more and more posts, some of my “good” discs are actually bad. Not completely dead but I’ve got one disc which I call a “rainbow” disc - Red, Yellow and Green all in one disc. Note that they’re all clean - no fingerprints or dust, they’ve only been read 4 times a year at most due to them being backup discs and they haven’t been scratched, warped or anything. I will put up some scandisc results as soon as practicably possible - I’m more inclined to weed out the entirely dead discs first, then see what the “not yet dead” discs look like. Scans are very slow due to the drive speed. Bear with me. Look forward to some replies from other Bluray users.
I’ve only got 16 of the Riteks in my possession at the moment, I don’t know where the rest went but it breaks down to 5 with file system damage, and 11 without file system damage.
However, there are a few from those 11 discs with “bad” scans, and one with a horrid scan! I can’t see any real pattern myself, but a few yellow blocks at around 50% of the burn seems to be the norm for this burner …
See the 11 attached scans for the no-filesystem-damage discs. The ones with filesystem damage will take a while for me to do because damaged discs scan slower … so here is something for you to chew on… (images continued in post after). I’d say ~ 1/3 of my discs have gone bad. They were all good with at most a few yellow blocks at ~ 50% of the burn initially.
Here are the dead-disc scans. I decided after 2% of consecutive bad sectors just to abort scan because it takes almost an hour to get there. So here we are, what appears to be 5 completely bad discs. I’ll be leaving one in to scan overnight to see if anything toward the end of the disc is readable, just out of interest.
Where did you purchase these? Are they branded Ritek?
So have you determined if the bad ones are all from YL02?
This is very bad news.
I only have 4x Ritek BD-R disks, and all are in good shape. Very early in the game with them though, as all have been burned in the last month using a GGW-H20L, YL05 firmware
You have any older Ritek burns/scans MegaDeth?
They all are [B]indeed Ritek branded as part of their “Excellent” series[/B], purchased individually jewel cased with a bluey/aqua sort of paper sleeve, non printable. I’m in Australia, and they were purchased directly from a distributor (www.intactmedia.com) which supplies most of the computer stores I frequent. If memory serves me right they would be Ritek BR2’s with a chocolatey brown sort of colour. They were my first discs, and I was highly skeptical of bluray at the time, so I did an Imgburn verify on all of them after burn and had tested them every time I got the box of discs out. Since then I’ve burnt more than 75 TDK 4x discs as well, I might start testing them if time permits, but I’m sure that as senior reviewers, you’d understand just how time-costly this really is! I’ve got quite a bit happening around me (Merry Christmas to you all!!!) so it might have to wait.
Which reminds me, the only reason I bought Ritek was that it was the only disc affordable enough for me at the time. I paid $10AUD / disc when most other discs couldn’t have been available at any less than $22AUD / disc, and while Ritek have been “mediocre” in my view, they’ve always been satisfactory enough (maybe not some select batches of Ritek CD and DVD’s … G05’s to say the least). I think I’ve learnt my lesson: no more Ritek BD-R’s … furthermore, I think part of the blame has to lie in this LG burner too. It offers a wonderful set of features at a price less than the Pioneer at the time - and apparently wonderful disc compatibility too - but at what price? Earlier I had made a thread about some Japanese guys doing scans of Bluray discs burnt by the GGW-H20L on the Liteon drives, and coming up with pretty much FAIL results every time. I wonder if burning quality was sacrificed in this burner (especially strategy quality) in order to maximise compatibility? Maybe there’s a bug in the firmware somewhere, or maybe the strategy was wrong and the pits/lands are wearing off the disc quickly due to insufficient burn power? Or maybe just bad luck with unstable dyes … I don’t know, but I was really disheartened to see the quality of the Liteon scans for the burns from this drive. If I had a Liteon, I would do some verifying RIGHT NOW, but Liteon drives are very rare in this country. You really can only get Pioneer and LG at arms length, Liteon will take more than some backordering and wait time, and no one’s ever heard of Matsushita/Panasonic Bluray writers at all over here.
They were all purchased in ONE batch, and [B]judging by the dates of the burn I cannot say YL02 is to blame[/B]. There were burns [B]one day apart where one survived and one didn’t - and I don’t think I was running YL02 in August, but I certainly was in July[/B]. There is one July disc in fair shape and one August disc which is sorta going so I suspect it’s starting to be a fairly random issue in my batch. The converse is also true which really does irk me quite a bit. I’m now sure I lost 5 discs entirely - and probably another few because of spotty red patches … attached is a scan of the disc which I left for a while to scan. CD/DVD Speed just “stopped” and gave up by itself automatically reporting 100% even though the disc has more than 20Gb burnt. I guess the LG decided it was time to give up on it.
There’s a [B]few pictures of the disc in question[/B] here:
Sorry, they’re all online “thumbnail” sized images but it should give you an idea of what I have. Unfortunately I threw all my covers out, paper covers over jewel cases are just so inconvenient!
You know, I feel bad for making two posts in a row, but I have sorta seen maybe a few clues …
It looks like the degradation sort of starts in the first 15% in a band which slowly “grows outwards”. Sure, I don’t have enough bad scans to prove this, but then again, wherever a disc is initially readable, the bad band stays towards the inside, and not the outside. And it might be growing until it engulfs the initial track, thus taking the disc along with it. The surprising characteristic is that the drive is slow and takes a lot of time, but it CAN distinguish the media info block, so it can report the manufacturer AND the BURNT SIZE of the disc. It just cannot read the actual data. To be honest, unless those pieces of data are more protected than the rest of my data, I cannot see a reason why the burnt size and status of the disc can be determined and my data can’t. Maybe a media problem, or maybe (in my mind, a more likely case), a strategy problem where the laser power curve doesn’t match the disc’s characteristics … and is worst at the particular diameter … must keep an eye on the still-good discs to determine their failure pattern.
Aside from that, I also notice that bluray burns are sort of ringey as the laser power keeps changing to the conditions of the disc, however, I cannot discern a pattern. All the failed discs - some have 2 different or three different bands of burn darkness at different diameters, but all have failed. Most of the bands are fairly well controlled though - you can really only easily see them under strong LED light … some of the bands on my TDK discs are worse.
But as you can appreciate, I’ve lost about 120Gb of archives there, it’s very disappointing especially at the price I paid for these discs. I have, to be honest, lost faith in optical storage altogether as most of my CDs and DVDs are slowly rotting away … as are these BD’s … and I’ve lost faith in hard drives, having caught “silent” corruption of data volumes over time (there are a few papers on this online which suggest silent data corruption is more widespread than we know of). There is nothing that will last forever, or even last 10 years with a good chance of remaining bit-integral.
P.S. To the eye, these discs are flat, unwarped. They follow my table surface just fine. Most are unscratched, all scratches, if any, are on the outer rim. Visually inspected, the discs are no different from the alive ones, including the code in the BCA. There was no overspeed possible, and no selection of speed at the time - 2x was the ONLY choice. I’d hate to think what my 4x TDK’s oversped to 6x might have done. I will find out.
I only have used the 4x none of the 2x.
I did a scan of my oldest Ritek BR2 (almost a full burn) and it is fine. Unfortunately I did not date it (coupled with my poor memory) but it is
about 2 months+ old.
[QUOTE=Kerry56;2478309]This is very bad news.
I only have 4x Ritek BD-R disks, and all are in good shape. Very early in the game with them though, as all have been burned in the last month using a GGW-H20L, YL05 firmware
You have any older Ritek burns/scans MegaDeth?[/QUOTE]
Since I have the same drive ( GGW-H20L ) I started to scan some old Verbatim 2x burned at 4x and 6x to see if any degradation is noticed.
Just tested my 1st Verbatim burned a year ago ( 8 DEC 2008 ) and just 3 yellow boxes but the file is readable.
In a normal pratice I tested ( CDSpeed read test ) every BD-R burned.
Maybe we can create a fixed topic about BD degradation along time posting any problems found and this way ranking media reliability.
Hmm … well we’ll see how it holds, because I’m sure these discs were fine for about a year, then by the 1.5yr mark some just vanished … as above. One of my TDK 4x oversped to 6x has just been scanned, all green so that’s reassuring. Also a CMC disc under Shintaro branding (4x I believe) has just scanned all green as well, though the reflective layer is being eaten away at the edges like a rotting CD. The Riteks are fine in respect to the rotting. Not a good sign. My TDKs are mostly nearing 1 year, though some are only 7-8mo old. I’ll test my Sony DL discs too just in case …
I can confirm [B]mine are BR1’s actually, contrary to what I said earlier.[/B]
religiously scans the stack of discs to make sure that nothing bad is happening
I haven’t noticed any rings that lui_gough mentioned. I examined the disks very closely too, under strong light and no trace of them. Only a bit of iridescence that is normal for bd disks.
I ran a few scans, and found no errors at all.
[QUOTE=Kerry56;2478381]I haven’t noticed any rings that lui_gough mentioned. I examined the disks very closely too, under strong light and no trace of them. Only a bit of iridescence that is normal for bd disks.
I ran a few scans, and found no errors at all.[/QUOTE]
On most discs burnt at 2x, they are very difficult to spot and sometimes not present, but I find that my burns on TDK 4x at 4x and 6x show marked rings (or bands) where the laser seems to have switched powers probably due to some W-OPC strategy … I tried my best to get a shot but it’s just this sort of thing that evades capture by camera. If I could get my scanner working, I’ll see how that does but this is an image of the “banding” on the outside edge of a TDK just for reference.
It is very obvious on BD-RE discs that have been packet written in multiple sessions, it sort of looks like that, however, my TDK discs WITH banding mostly scan all GREEN … which is confusing …
[QUOTE=lui_gough;2478383]On most discs burnt at 2x, they are very difficult to spot and sometimes not present, but I find that my burns on TDK 4x at 4x and 6x show marked rings (or bands) where the laser seems to have switched powers probably due to some W-OPC strategy … I tried my best to get a shot but it’s just this sort of thing that evades capture by camera. If I could get my scanner working, I’ll see how that does but this is an image of the “banding” on the outside edge of a TDK just for reference.
It is very obvious on BD-RE discs that have been packet written in multiple sessions, it sort of looks like that, however, my TDK discs WITH banding mostly scan all GREEN … which is confusing …[/QUOTE]
Banding doesn’t imply always as a defect. Many DVD burners using Z-CLV produces banding on the medias that read perfectly.
I hope that your very unfortunate problem will be restricted to Ritek medias.
Just tried a scanner, and unfortunately couldn’t get the rings to show up there The image above is gonna have to do … it’s strange cos I own two GGW-H20L’s and both do this banding thing, so I don’t think it’s a peculiarity of my drive as such, but just that the laser power seems to fluctuate as the disc is burning maybe due to the W-OPC strategy detecting sub-optimal quality and giving it a little tweak here and there. Might just be me choosing media that this burner isn’t quite good at burning, the Verbatim I burnt is ringy as well, likewise the DL disks from Sony seem to be less ringy. The TDKs are TDKBLDRBB. They’re the ringiest, whereas the Ritek comes 2nd, with CMC and a different TDK 4x disc … also ringy. But regardless, at the moment, rings vs quality scan = no link because very ringy discs are giving me all green scans right now … and some ringless Riteks are entirely dead. The mystery only deepens.
[QUOTE=zhadoom;2478390]Banding doesn’t imply always as a defect. Many DVD burners using Z-CLV produces banding on the medias that read perfectly.
I hope that your very unfortunate problem will be restricted to Ritek medias. :([/QUOTE]
I do too mate … I do too. I’ve burnt too much BD for my own good … surely hope that it’s just a bad batch but Ritek certainly has a bad mark in my book now.
And yes, I do agree banding isn’t always a defect, but back in the DVD days, I disliked Z-CLV burners because they tend to produce “spikes” and regions where the error and jitter rate were markedly different, in which case, if my DVD was going to stutter, or a TRT slowdown were to happen, or a PIF spike were to happen, they tended to coincide with these speed zones, and I’ve never really liked them to be honest. They also imply a “suspension” of burning … which is something I don’t like either … like W-OPC, sometimes at the link area the error rate spikes, and you get bands due to changes in laser power. It’s not all bad because nowadays readers are very tolerant indeed, but my older DVD-ROMs used to go mad as soon as it hit one of these bumps and sometimes needed persuasion to keep reading …
While trawling the internet to see if anyone has a similar experience with Ritek, I came across this site: http://forum.doom9.org/archive/index.php/t-148626.html. It doesn’t mention the true manufacturer of the disc, but to think that his data “faded” after 40-50 plays is also quite alarming. Somehow, I hazard to think it may have been Ritek or maybe lesser manufacturer … so the Bluray market may be starting to become saturated with poorer quality media. However, for the most part, Bluray is still too young to have many reports of discs longevity.
At the moment[/B], as far as my scanning goes, everything except Ritek seems safe (i.e. my TDK, my CMC (with reservations), my Verbatim and my Sony). This might not be the case in another year’s time. Sorry for flooding my own thread with my own posts, but I think it should serve as a warning. Who knows, maybe in one year’s time there’ll be more problems surfacing …
testing some of my media right now
An update: At the moment this seems to affect my Ritek media only. I spent all day yesterday scanning some more discs …
16 Ritek media (all from 1 to 1.5 yrs in age) - 5 totally dead, some questionable, none all green.
15 TDK 4x “brown bottom” discs (roughly 9-12mo age) - all show fully green, some were oversped to 6x.
1 TDK 4x “dark greyblue” disc (1yr age) - all green again, oversped to 6x
3 Sony 2x DL discs from MEI T02 (9mo age) - all green.
1 CMC 4x disc (9mo age) - all green.
1 Verbatim (VERBATIMc) disc (7mo age) - all green.
Granted that all my other discs are younger than the Ritek, I cannot be sure, but the Ritek are the only ones with yellow spots at all “for the most part” - excepting bad disc conditions. I have no more other types of media to test around here … I think the other discs may need more time to show problems.
(Furthermore, as a side note, I will be away from the internet for the next week or so. Merry Christmas to all, may your data be safe next year )