Mitsubishi Chemicals DVD+RW

vbimport

#61

I´m surprised, I don´t burn often RW butI thought only the specified burn speed can be used, not slower and not faster


#62

I don’t think you should overspeed DVD+RW media, there have been reports of lasers getting fried when doing that. But as tedious as it is, burning below rated speed appears to be the only way to burn these discs on the LG with at least a 70% success rate, the scan above is actually one of the better burns for these discs that have been rewritten 50-70 times already.

The Renesas based LG is not a very good drive pick for rewritable DVD’s though, you would get much better success if you used a Lite-On or other Mediatek based writers, while the Liteon DVD drives may suck at burning CD-R and most DVD-Rs but at least burning RW is one good reason to keep them around. When I’ve had to deal with DVD+RW discs that refuse to even be recognized by the LG, every time I’ve been able to resolve that by doing a full format on my trusty old iHAS120 6 or the newer iHAS624 B. I’ve heard that Sanyo-based Plextors may also be a good choice for this media and RW in general.


#63

I just bought a 10-pack of Verbatim DataLifePlus DVD+RW 2.4x discs on Ebay last month (for $9.xx) and on the back of the DVD+RW case it shows 2002 and are Made in Taiwan.

so I figure these discs that have just been sitting on someone’s shelf for a long time. I only tested one so far and with a couple of burns everything seems okay as I initially burned a couple of ISO’s (Windows 10 1809/Linux Mint v19.1 Xfce (Linux was my 2nd burn to it)) and so far everything is good as after I burned the Linux to it, before installation, I used it’s ‘verify’ function to make sure the data is intact and it passed. I burned it with my Sony 7240s burner which has a mfg date of Aug 2009. I do have a total of three DVD burners Liteon 1673s(my first DVD burner (mfg date is March 2005))/Sony 7240s(mfg date is Aug 2009)/Liteon iHAS324 B (mfg date is May 2011). only reason I got the iHAS324 B drive is for XBox 360 backups at the time as it’s got custom firmware on it so it can overburn DVD+R DL discs a bit so it works on XBox360 backups.

but anyways, I partially got the Verbatim DVD+RW discs on that occasion I need to burn something to DVD that ill have to re-burn here and there (like say OS installs) and on the off occasion I need them for making a temporary copy of VHS to DVD on one of those home DVD recorders where you can connect VHS to as I would imagine these discs rated lower speed (i.e. 2.4x) will probably be a bit more compatible as the home DVD recorder has a mfg date of Sep 2006.

but prior to these Verbatim DVD+RW’s I had some Memorex 4x DVD+RW discs which have a date of 2004 on the back of the cases but those have been pretty much shot for a while now as when you hold them up to the light they had tiny holes in them (you could see light shine through) as some would not even work at all and the small amount (I think 3 out of the 10 or so I had) that still worked were on the edge (as you could see some light shining through it when holding up to the light and seemed a bit flaky on working after a burn etc) so I pitched them and replaced them with the Verbatim above as back when I got those Memorex discs I was not aware that Verbatim is basically the best all around recordable DVD which I suspect I bought back around 2005-2006 which is pretty much when I got my first DVD burner which is that Liteon 1673s burner which still works to this day and has the most wear and tear on it I am sure of all of my DVD burners.

but maybe Memorex CD-RW discs are more reliable than their DVD+RW counterparts? ; because I got some Memorex CD-RW 700MB discs that are pretty old and still seem to work fine as I don’t know how old they are as I don’t have the original case they where in and on the case it does not show a date etc (I would guesstimate these are probably around the mid-2000’s if not a bit before). it just shows they write from 4x up to 12x but none of my burners (CD or DVD) can exceed 10x on those discs anyways.

but with that said… I am not currently on Windows (been mainly using Linux Mint since Jan 2019) so I can’t really run any discs scans at the moment as I don’t have Win10 installed currently as I wiped the SSD clean (using the ATA Secure Erase function) that had Win10 1809 on it. but at this point I am just waiting for Win10 1903’s release soon and will clean install that (to my larger SSD as my smaller SSD has Linux on it) and then maybe I can do a quick disc scan of the Verbatim discs I burned a couple of times just to see how it is since they likely have been sitting on someones shelf unused for probably 15 years or so I suspect given that 2002 date on the back of each case. plus, even if I do get that up and running… does it matter if my IDE/SATA burners are connected to a USB adapter? ; because I currently don’t have any DVD burners internally connected to my main PC as I just connect those drives to one of those SATA/IDE to USB 3.0 adapter devices on that occasion I need to burn or read a CD/DVD disc which is not all that much lately.

@aztekk ; thanks for the info about the Liteon drives being able to read/write rewritable DVD’s well and about the full format option could be potentially good to revive some discs in the future for me.

I noticed my Sony 7240s DVD burner does not seem to like pressed CD’s as it has trouble initializing them (at least a good portion of those I have tried) as you hear it clicking etc but never gets to a point of initializing it to read it. but with burned discs it does not seem to have any obvious problems that I have noticed. but putting those same pressed CD’s in my Liteon DVD burners (iHAS324 B and 1673s) does not seem to have issues reading those.


#64

For burning I would say no, if the adapter is compatible to the drive and fast enough.

For scanning it´s a bit different. I saw my scans with an HP 335e (external version, rebadged iHBS 112 2) show much lower error-rates (maybe also depending on the drive?) and less samples if compared to internal drives with SATA-connection


#65

Thanks for the info Tester_1.

the exact adapter I am using is ‘Vantec CB-ISA225-U3’ which works well to convert just about any hard drive/dvd drive to USB 3 connection. but since even USB 2 is around 30MB/s that’s more than fast enough for DVD burning/reading.

but it appears, given what you said, for disc scans it’s best I use a proper SATA connection like I used to when I did disc scans years ago.


#66

I´m not sure if every adapter show the same behaviour, maybe you should make a scan-comparison between SATA and adapter


#67

Hell, that’s a good idea just to see if there is some consistency between two scans of the same disc on the same Liteon drive (one scanned on SATA connection and the other, on the same Liteon drive, through the USB adapter) as if there is, then I should be safe to use the USB adapter. it not, well then it appears SATA is the only reliable option for me in terms of disc scans. it’s been a while, but I think KProbe still works on Win10 for Liteon drives or does people not really use that anymore?

p.s. but it might be another month or so as I am waiting for Microsoft to release the Win10 1903 ISO as I am going to clean install it back onto a currently empty SSD I have and then I can do these tests. but then again, since I don’t really use Win10 all that much anymore I could just install the current Win10 1809 and don’t bother configuring much to my liking just to test this stuff out.


#68

With Verbatim and other brands, the 2002 on the back is the year the jewel case art/branding was created, so it could be a year or two newer than that. If they really are made in 2002, it would be one of the earliest DVD+RW media, since that format was only released in 2001 (and DVD+R in 2002). But given you have the discs, you don’t have to guess because I have created a software that allows you to get the exact date (MM/DD/YY) the disc was made. Since it’s made in Taiwan that should mean its manufactured by CMC Magnetics (to MCC specifications), so you should select that in the settings after you input the code on the center hub of the disc. Download it here. (you need windows though)

A general comment on the DVD+RW format: It’s the media I burn the most these days, but I’m not pleased about its reliability or ease of re-writing. It’s the only form of recordable optical media that I’ve ever actually lost data on over time (an old Daxon-made DVD+RW from 2005). I would not trust it for anything outside of strictly temporary use. If I had one of those fancy new DVD players that support USB drives, I probably wouldn’t be using DVD+RW at all.

Memorex does not produce media, it is only a brand. Most Memorex CD-RW media sold in the US back then was manufactured by CMC Magnetics or Ritek Corporation. CD-RW as a format is definitely much more reliable than any rewritable DVDs, you can see this clearly when you compare the difference in error rates between a CD-R and CD-RW, versus DVD+R and DVD+RW. With CD-RW it is common for BLER to be no more than 30% higher than a CD-R of comparable quality, whereas with DVD+RW as you can see from the scan I posted it can have insanely high PI/PO errors and jitter. Whereas a “bad” quality DVD+R would have PIFs in the range of 5000 total, the disc I posted above has 125352 of them, 250 times that of a “bad” quality DVD+R (and that’s one of the better burns). In a pinch you could use CD-RWs for medium-term archival, but with DVD+RW you better be thankful whatever you end up is even readable.

I’m still using the same Maxell branded Ritek CD-RWs I bought in 2006, and they still work and scan perfectly… they sure made good stuff back then.

I would recommend against that. Using ATAPI devices with adapters is known to result in various issues, ranging from drives not being recognized at all to intermittent issues, buffer underruns and bandwidth limitations that can result in constant re-linking and PIO-mode style burn results.

In theory there should be nothing wrong with adapters, especially on high-speed reliable links like PCI, but the problem lies in the engineering of the chipsets inside of them. East Asian companies manufacturing most chipsets used in these adapters are notorious for cutting cost at every corner or having bad expertise in the underlying protocol engineering involved (you get what you pay for) and since these adapters are usually targeted at connecting hard drives, which will never issue ATAPI commands, the first thing that gets jinxed is ATAPI compatibility, in total or just parts of it. It’s not limited to external adapters either, even some chipsets used on desktop motherboards have had problems with optical drives.

On a laptop you have no choice, but on desktop computers using a USB adapter is a lazy man’s solution and spending some time and a few extra bucks will get you something much more reliable. The most compatible solution is of course using a motherboard with an Intel ICH chipset, but if that’s not possible then a good alternative is to use a PCI card adapter with a chipset designed in America or Japan. I continue to recommend cards based on chipsets made by Silicon Image (based in OR, USA), as their products have been proven by countless people to be as compatible as it gets for ATAPI devices.

The topic has been discussed to a great extent on these forums so for further advice I refer you to the following topics, with user testimonies of what works and doesn’t:

https://club.myce.com/t/ide-controllers-the-definitive-thread/81345
https://club.myce.com/t/optical-drive-ide-controllers-compatibility-thread/180662
https://club.myce.com/t/nero-cdspeed-not-detecting-drives/307214/17 (my advice)

P.S. What DVD recorder do you have, and have you noticed any quasi line TBC functionality when doing VHS transfers? (just asking for personal interest)


#69

Not to be argumentative, but your post is quite contradictory, and I will illustrate why.

Do you know what happens when you briefly interrupt a SCSI connection¹ during a sequential stream of WRITE 10 or WRITE 12 commands? A failure of SYNCHRONIZE_CACHE leading to a buffer underrun. A non-issue with hard drives, the driver sets some bits to indicate an error condition and will re-transmit when possible but when it occurs with optical drives it leads to one of the following scenarios:

A) ABORT process - enjoy your shiny new coaster [old CD-RW drives]
B) SUSPEND writing, re-link with LOSS (2K or 32K space) [DVD-R(A), others]
C) SUSPEND writing, re-link “lossless” [Burn-Proof etc, DVD-R(W), DVD+R(W)]

The first case is self-explanatory, and leaves no ambiguity in regards to the quality of the burning process. Lossless linking does not waste usable space, but will still always cause unnecessary PI/PO errors and even a single instance can render a disc unreadable on some players due to clock slippage. The plus formats have a better linking implementation, which works on an ECC block, the original -R formats corrupt user data, leading to even more errors:

untitled

But the end result is that as long as the drive doesn’t choke on the linking point, the disc will remain readable and the user would not notice the problem. That may be an acceptable situation, but it is not an ideal one, due to the physical problems that I (briefly) explained so even with buffer underrun protection it is highly desireable to avoid creating these issues.

Of course there is no protection for quality scan commands, I suppose they would just get dropped, leading you to have discovered an issue with your janky configuration. If you’re connection is bad enough that it’s dropping a considerable amount of information, imagine how many linking points such a disc would have, if it occured during writing. So let’s not pretend that just because there exists a fallback mechanism (with flaws) for write commands that this is a functional configuration as you suggested.


¹ IDE/SATA drives use SCSI commands encapsulated within the ATAPI inteface, they are therefore programmed in the same manner.


#70

Hm, you write about what happens if the drive write data, I talk about read data.

I´m not sure about lower error-rates at scanning with USB-attached drive, maybe my 335e is the most un-sensitive iHBS 112.

It´s attached to native USB3.0 of H97-chipset, the data rate should not be a problem.

The strange thing is, the scanned samples are lower than with my internal iHBS-drives.
What´s the reason? Did it have sometimes a speed problem via USB and skip samples?

Something general in the adapter-discussion: A connection to the native SATA from mainboard ist mostly the best way for a well working system. Some ppl say if the SATA-connectors are in IDE-Mode is better than in AHCI-Mode. Maybe dependend on drive, mainboard, chipset, drivers etc., I don´t have problems with running in AHCI-Mode

Not only USB-adapters can cause problems (speed, recognize, lost connection), I have also some PCI/PCIe to SATA-adapters and sometimes real big problems with some of it.


#71

Yeah, that’s why I guesstimated those discs are probably around 15 years old (i.e. from about 2004) since I imagine that ‘2002’ date is not strictly accurate, which you already know.

but ill probably be testing out your program in the not too distant future as I am curious to see how old some of my discs are as even though I generally date the disc I burn(like when I burned them), I have no idea how old the disc itself is.

EDIT: I just loaded up a virtual machine on my Linux install and loaded up your program and, since I did not know the ‘Manufacturer’ I typed in the hub code and check through them all and ‘CMC Magnetics’ came back with May 9th 2003 for the mfg date of that Verbatim DVD+RW I opened.

p.s. I even have some really old (probably some of the oldest recordable discs I got) Verbatim DataLifePlus 650MB/74min CD-R’s (just three of them and they have been sitting on the shelf for many years now) that are probably from around 1998-1999 as the back of the case says ‘1997’ (and Made in Singapore) and I am pretty sure my first CD burner (Memorex brand but I don’t remember the exact model) was in 1998. but anyways, the center hub disc code of one of those CD-R’s is… 8907J110751 (each of the three discs have a different code)

EDIT: after running that media hub code through your program under the ‘Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation [CD-R]’ it came back with ‘1998’ for Manufacturing Date.

and checking some of my other CD-RW discs (Memorex 650MB/74min (4x rated)) some report as June 3rd 1999. the back of the case says 1999 to as I was doing a full erase of these discs and under Linux it showed ‘Prodisc Technology Inc.’ so I used Prodisc in your tool and some of my other random CD-R’s etc I have some from 2000-2001 etc.

one disc (Memorex) shows up as “Plasmon Data Systems Ltd.”. checking through all of the options report as ‘August 1998’.

Well the Liteon 1673s IDE burner is currently on my old computer connected to the standard IDE connection like usual which is on a ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe motherboard (Windows 10 is not a option on that (64bit won’t install due to lack of ‘NX Bit’ and even the 32bit version, which installs, but it’s unreliable) which basically means it’s stuck to Windows 7, which Microsoft drops support of it in Jan 2020, or move to Linux. so I choose Linux) which was my main PC prior to my current one which I had since May 2012.

I am mainly using the SATA burners on the USB 3 adapter anyways.

but when using the Sony 7240s SATA burner connected to that Vantec USB 3 adapter I did not notice any buffer issues (I used ‘xfburn’ under Linux Mint to burn the ISO’s) and it read the disc fine on a HP laptop(from the earlier side of the current decade which has it’s own DVD burner/reader) and my older computer with the Liteon 1673s drive. but I have only did 10x CD-RW write speed along with 2.4x DVD+RW burn speed so far on that adapter as I don’t think I have burned any standard DVD-R(+R) discs yet at the usual 8x/12x/16x (maybe 20x) speeds.

but if you think there is a decent chance burning standard DVD recordable discs will have issues down the road using that USB 3 adapter(?) I might just temporarily reconnect it to my main PC’s motherboard like it used to be years ago before burning anything of higher importance to my Verbatim/Taiyo Yuden DVD recordables.

Do you mean what ‘home DVD recorder’ do I have? ; if so, it’s… Magnavox MWR10D6 (mfg date is September 2006).

I have not used it since probably sometime in the late 2000’s though as I only recently took it off the shelf and cleaned a lot of dust off of it. the last time I used it, It was on one of the older style TV’s and not the modern flat screen type. but from memory, it seemed to look about the same visual quality as the VHS tape.

the VHS I used to connect to that Magnavox home DVD recorder is a Panasonic PV-8400.

but basically at the time I was using those now dead Memorex DVD+RW disc on it to make a temporary copy of the VHS stuff and then once I was done I copied the DVD+RW disc on the PC to a permanent DVD-R(or +R) using IMGBurn.

Well the majority, if not the vast majority, of my CD/DVD burning would have been done on two motherboards (along with two drives… Liteon 24102b CD-RW drive(mfg date is Dec 2001)/Liteon 1673S(I still have both of these drives and they still work))…

-FIC AD11 (basically was a Alienware computer I got in 2001).
-ASUS A8N32-SLI Deluxe (I built this in March 2006 and pretty much swapped out the motherboard for my current one in May 2012).

…and some on my current motherboard (ASUS P8H61-M LX Plus) which I had since May 2012.

so two of the three boards are AMD based CPU’s with my current one being Intel based.

p.s. the oldest CD-RW drive I still have is a HP burner (C4459-56000) which has a mfg date of May 2000 on it. but this one is crap compared to my Liteon 24102b CD-RW drive as I think it (the HP burner) has problems burning CD-RW discs but I think it’s okay with CD-R the last I knew. but this HP burner pretty much collects dust as the Liteon burner is just superior overall and not to mention a faster drive to.

I wonder has anyone ever lost any data on Verbatim branded DVD+RW after the data has been sitting say 10+ years?

just curious as anything of any worth I don’t trust solely on DVD+RW anyways as I tend to do the usual stuff which is at least two copies on two different hard drives (at the minimum) along with a copy on two different DVD recordable media (i.e. Verbatim/Taiyo Yuden). but I only burn higher importance stuff to DVD recordable discs nowadays since hard drives are generally better for most data backup since it’s cheaper and more convenient.

I am just curious… I noticed you said in a earlier post that you can sort of revive DVD+RW disc by using the ‘full format’ option through a Liteon burner you got. does that improve PIE/PIF at all, at least temporarily?