Masters of Disaster (Latest C't 16x-Writer Test)

CD, DVD and (Ultra HD) Blu-ray Writers
#1

Hi,

the German c’t magazine has tested the latest 16x DL writers. As usual, burned discs were measured on a “CATS DVD pro” system. As I am too lazy to write down all results in detail here, I post only c’t’s own quality index generated out of “PI Sum 8”, “PIF”, “POF”, “DC-Jitter max / avg”, “Asym. min / max” (a negative index means “out of spec” burn, 100 maximum quality).

BenQ DW1620 pro (B7P9)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -6 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -382 — 16x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — 63 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — 16 — 16x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — -5 — 16x / 12x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 44 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ERROR — DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -126 — 16x / 12x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 8 — 16x / 8x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — 56 — 16x / 12x
[/li][/ul]

LG GSA-4163B (A100)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -19 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — 75 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -563 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -476 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — -194 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — -411 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — 22 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — ERROR — DON’T USE
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -346 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -521 — 16x / 4x
[/li][/ul]

MSI DR16-B (M1.4)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -36 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — 49 — 12x / 12x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — 72 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — 39 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 60 — 16x / 16x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 52 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ERROR — DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — 39 — 16x / 12x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -156 — 16x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — 68 — 16x / 16x
[/li][/ul]

Plextor PX-716A (1.02)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — 57 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -71 — 14x / 12x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -291 — 12x / 4x <-- Typo. Burn seems to be OK according to graph
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -104 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 28 — 14x / 12x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 50 — 4x / 4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — 49 — 4x / 4x
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -291 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -599 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -119 — 16x / 8x
[/li][/ul]

Ricoh MP5316 (2.B9)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -156 — 16x / 8x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -236 — 12x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — 66 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -420 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — -348 — 16x / 6x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 58 — 4x / 4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — 8 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — 41 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 67 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -7 — 16x / 8x
[/li][/ul]

Samsung TS-H552 (TS05)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -608 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -197 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -500 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -82 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — -355 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 18 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — 41 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -351 — 12x / 6x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -300 — 16x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -481 — 16x / 6x
[/li][/ul]

Good 4x burner :wink:

Sony DRU-710A (BYX2)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — 38 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — 85 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -242 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -40 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 59 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — -17 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ERROR — DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -320 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 17 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -220 — 16x / 8x
[/li][/ul]

TDK AID+1616N (2.C8)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -213 — 16x / 6x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -116 — 12x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — 70 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -221 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 6 — 16x / 4x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 52 — 4x / 4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — -49 — 2.4x / DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -79 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 37 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -119 — 16x / 6x
[/li][/ul]

Toshiba SD-R5372 (TU31)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -294 — 2x / DON’T USE
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -467 — 12x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -41 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -552 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — -508 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — -157 — 4x / 4x <-- Typo. Burn seems to be OK according to graph
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — -427 — 2.4x / DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -406 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -542 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -430 — 12x / 4x
[/li][/ul]

Worst burner!

Waitec Action 16 (BSX1)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — 60 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — 76 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -282 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — 46 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 58 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 58 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ERROR — DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — 47 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 53 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -349 — 16x / 8x
[/li][/ul]

#2

MSI DR16-B (M1.4)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -36 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — 49 — 12x / 12x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — 72 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — 39 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 60 — 16x / 16x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 52 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ERROR — DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — 39 — 16x / 12x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -156 — 16x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — 68 — 16x / 16x
[/li][/ul]

Plextor PX-716A (1.02)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — 57 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -71 — 14x / 12x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -291 — 12x / 4x <-- Typo. Burn seems to be OK according to graph
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -104 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 28 — 14x / 12x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 50 — 4x / 4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — 49 — 4x / 4x
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -291 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -599 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -119 — 16x / 8x
[/li][/ul]

Ricoh MP5316 (2.B9)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -156 — 16x / 8x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -236 — 12x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — 66 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -420 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — -348 — 16x / 6x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 58 — 4x / 4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — 8 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — 41 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 67 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -7 — 16x / 8x
[/li][/ul]

Samsung TS-H552 (TS05)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -608 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -197 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -500 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -82 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — -355 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 18 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — 41 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -351 — 12x / 6x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -300 — 16x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -481 — 16x / 6x
[/li][/ul]

Good 4x burner :wink:

Sony DRU-710A (BYX2)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — 38 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — 85 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -242 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -40 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 59 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — -17 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ERROR — DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -320 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 17 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -220 — 16x / 8x
[/li][/ul]

TDK AID+1616N (2.C8)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -213 — 16x / 6x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -116 — 12x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — 70 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -221 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 6 — 16x / 4x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 52 — 4x / 4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — -49 — 2.4x / DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -79 — 4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 37 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -119 — 16x / 6x
[/li][/ul]

Tosiba SD-R5372 (TU31)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — —
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — —
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — ---
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — ---
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — ---
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — ---
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ---
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — ---
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — ---
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — ---
[/li][/ul]

Waitec Action 16 (BSX1)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — —
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — —
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — ---
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — ---
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — ---
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — ---
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ---
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — ---
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — ---
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — ---
[/li][/ul]

#3

Toshiba SD-R5372 (TU31)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — -294 — 2x / DON’T USE
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — -467 — 12x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -41 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — -552 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — -508 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — -157 — 4x / 4x <-- Typo. Burn seems to be OK according to graph
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — -427 — 2.4x / DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — -406 — 12x / 4x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — -542 — 8x / 4x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -430 — 12x / 4x
[/li][/ul]

Worst burner!

Waitec Action 16 (BSX1)
Medium — Quality index — Write speed chosen by writer / recommended speed by c’t

[ul]
[li]MXL RG03 DVD-R 8x — 60 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TYG02 DVD-R 8x — 76 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]TT G02 DVD-R 8x — -282 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]RicohJPN R02 DVD+R 8x — 46 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]Yuden000 T02 DVD+R 8x — 58 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]MKM 001 DVD+R DL — 58 — 2.4x / 2.4x
[/li][li]RicohJPN D00 DVD+R DL — ERROR — DON’T USE
[/li][li]Ritek R04 DVD+R 16x — 47 — 8x / 6x
[/li][li]Phillips C16 DVD+R 16x — 53 — 8x / 8x
[/li][li]MCC 004 DVD+R 16x — -349 — 16x / 8x
[/li][/ul]

#4

@admin

Please could you merge my three postings?!

kaborka

#5

Current latest firmware version.

BenQ DW1620 pro (B7P9) => B7T9
LG GSA-4163B (A100) => A102
MSI DR16-B (M1.4)
Plextor PX-716A (1.02) => A104 beta
Ricoh MP5316 (2.B9)
Samsung TS-H552 (TS05) => TS06
Sony DRU-710A (BYX2)
TDK AID+1616N (2.C8)
Toshiba SD-R5372 (TU31) => TU53
Waitec Action 16 (BSX1)

The rest drive models are not important.

#6

so what do the negative numbers mean? they all mean ‘out of spec burn’? or can they be compared in some way?

#7

The numbers are, as I wrote above, a quality index generated out of “PI Sum 8”, “PIF”, “POF”, “DC-Jitter max / avg”, “Asym. min / max” (which are also given in the mentioned c’t article). Just to let the reader compare results better.
“Out of spec” (negative numbers) means, that one or more of the above paramters are outsite the recommended range for DVDs, so that some drives may not be able to read these discs without errors. Consequently the CATs system reported POFs (Uncorrectable errors) on many burned-discs with negative index. It is very likely, that this happens also on consumer devices with bad error-correction abilities. Never use such discs for data-backups as the situation gets worse when discs are aging.

ps. The CATS system is an industry-wide de-facto-standard system to measure disc quality against given recommendations.

#8

MSI DR16-B (M1.4) - shld be M1.6 now, although it is meant fro Msi’s 2nd drive DR16-B, but it is like 1620A->1620Pro :iagree:

#9

I find the numbers very difficult to interpret… they are all under different burn speeds, and some have typos. What is an effective way to interpret them???

I mean, I did an excel sheet to compile everything, and it seems like Waitec drive is the 2nd best one… (although admittedly I didn’t take into consideration the burn speed… but that’s my point actually, the numbers seem to go everywhere…)

#10

Answer comes later today

#11

Nice, much easier to interpret. :slight_smile:

#12

BenQ DW1620 pro (B7P9) => B7T9
LG GSA-4163B (A100) => A102
MSI DR16-B (M1.4) => M1.6 (DW1620 OEM)
Plextor PX-716A (1.02) => A104 beta
Ricoh MP5316 (2.B9) => ?
Samsung TS-H552 (TS05) => TS06
Sony DRU-710A (BYX2) =? SOHW-1633S/1653S OEM
TDK AID+1616N (2.C8) => ND-3500A?
Toshiba SD-R5372 (TU31) => TU53
Waitec Action 16 (BSX1) => DRU-710A?

Updated. :slight_smile:

Kaborka may have forgotten CDFreaks. :sad:

#13

M1.4 is a Benq B7K9, M1.6 is BENQ B7P9, they differ only in some model/revision strings.

#14

Thanks. :slight_smile:

#15

I’ve been posting summaries of the c’t DVD burner tests at CDRLabs for some time, e.g. this post with the test that this thread is about.

c’t defined a quality index to distill the flood of information to a single number (but they do give you the information it’s based on as well). This index is a weighted average based on 3 important parameters:

  • PI Sum 8 / PIF / POF (linear) (max: 280 / 4 / 0)
  • DC Jitter (quadratic) ( > 10% is problematic)
  • signal asymmetry (exponent 1.5) (% value should not vary more that 10)
    The index is 100 for “perfect” burns and negative if all paramters are outside of the specs. Don’t ask about further details about this index, they weren’t specified. If the index goes negative, it tends to do so drastically though, so a linear average like masotime did is not a fair indicator.

c’t also specifies a grade (think A-E) based on this quality index:

++ >= 75
 + >= 50
 0 >= 25
 - >  0
-- <= 0

How to make a rhyme of this? Well it’s not easy, because they did the burns at the maximum speed the drive allowed with the tested firmware. Think of it as an index of “how good is the combination drive/medium if I do a burn as fast as I can”. This tends to reward cautious burning strategies- so it’s always important to look at the speed used. The test reports have a great deal of information, and it’s hard to do justice with a summary.

I missed the “typos” that kaborka mentioned. In these cases the PI-Sum-8 scan doen’t seem to agree with the error values indicated (one or the other is incorrect).

I stumbled across this thread because I was looking for information on the Waitec Action 16 (see this post). This is a prime example of how a cautious strategy gives a good quality score- the LiteOn drives that the Waitec is based on haven’t done at all well in c’t tests in the past, partly because they were too optimistic in the burning speed. I’d like to know if it’s just the speed limit or if there’s more to it.

G

#16

Thanks MediumRare for the details I should have posted.

Kaborka

#17

This dosn’t add up. These results seem to contadict all the kprobe and cd speed tests I’ve seen. Are these tests as useless as these resuys seem to indicate? For example I’ve seen near perfect results with ty 8x+ at 16x on the 1620 and nec 3500. What am I missing??? :confused:

#18

I’ve seen some really crappy test setup. Yuden000 T02 works great with my NEC 3500A. Plus there are plenty of quality burns with this media in this forum. That’s enough proof 4 me.

#19

lol…“resuys” should be “results”

furballi…so your saying that these c’t results are bunk…

#20

And c’t has tested all consumers tools against their CATS’ results more than once. Most of the time, these results don’t even correlate.

Kaborka