Longevity of phtalocyanine vs. cyanine CD-R media?

Just want to ask anybody if Mitsui dics get results like this . (SonyCRX230AE) I don’t know whether to buy into their “longevity” argument. 100 - 300 years is great but is phtaylocyanine dye as universally accepted by players as cyanine?

The Blank CD-R(W) Media Tests threads are not meant for starting discussions, so I have split the post above off and created this new thread in the Blank Media forum.

No more Mitsui. MAM-A, as it is now called, has been bought by an Italian company called Computer Support Italy long ago, and now has been sold to some Swiss investors.

In the early days, cyanine did show some stability problems, but nowadays it doesn’t matter anymore, in fact the recent cyanine CD-R media (Taiyo Yuden DX Dye, or maybe Taiyo Yuden Tuned-X) is mostly superior to phthalocyanine, which is more widespread and also used by third-tier and noob manufacturers.
It’s not only the dye that makes the disc, it’s also the reflective layer, the polycarbonate…

Based on the legendary german magazin C’t. I say stick with TY.
Some results out of my head.

These results are based on accelerated aging tests.
TY longlivety -> ++ (excellent)
MAM GOLD longlivety -> O (Which is average)
CMC Magnetics pthalocyanine silver longlivety -> O

So far MAM didn’t do that well in the unbiased tests !
Offcourse the results in there propaganda are top notch but then again it’s pure propaganda.

The old (real) Mitsui gets results like that. But they haven’t been the same since they changed to MAM.

I would also say stick with TY.

lol, so I could just use (A-grade, like HP or Infiniti) CMC and get the same results as MAM-A for half the price. Thanks for the good laugh, [B]dakhaas[/B]!

I made a error CMC’s stability score was actually +.

But here are the scores ripped from the summary on Hydrogen audio.
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=45551

Plextor CD-R 48x (Taiyo Yuden / cyanine dye / silver)
Quality: +
Durability: ++
Compatibility: ++

Primeon Gold CD-R 48x (C.S.I. MAM-E / phthalocyanine dye / gold)
Quality: –
Durability: o
Compatibility: +

Sony CD-R 48x (Sony / phthalocyanine dye / silver)
Quality: +
Durability: +
Compatibility: +

TDK CD-R 52x (CMC / phthalocyanine dye / silver)
Quality: -
Durability: +
Compatibility: -

Verbatim CD-R DLP 52x (Mitsubishi / azo dye / silver)
Quality: +
Durability: –
Compatibility: ++

Verbatim CD-R Audio 16x (Mitsubishi / azo dye / silver)
Quality: –
Durability: –
Compatibility: –

Any disc getting Quality ++?

SOme more data which is interresting

Verbatim music -> Made in China
Verbatim Datalife Plus -> Made in India (no suprise !)
Sony - Austria (Sony/KPMG plant !. That explains the better results when compared to earlier disc’s made by Leaddata !)

no disc got ++ for quality

Resurecting an old thread here.
This test shows Phthalocyanine based media being far superior to other types. At least in these torture tests that may or may not reflect much of real life.
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/gipwog/StabilityStudy.pdf

It’s one thing to test disks in extreme conditions, and it’s another one to have actual real-world longevity data.

In my view it’s not very scientific to put discs in conditions they’ll never meet in real-life and then extrapolate their lifespan from the results. These tests are useful and even essential for manufacturers, but they don’t give definitive answers, far from it! Think about cars for 5 minutes: pushing 10 cars @150 Mph and see the ones that break during the test. Is it scientific to conclude that the ones that were breaking during the test will have a shorter lifespan in real-world? Not one bit. It’s flawed thinking. you might as well put fish out of the water and declare that fish can’t live longer than 30 seconds.

Now to actual, real-world data: my oldest CDRs are from 1996, are cyanine (TY and Maxell) and haven’t aged a bit since. They are just as new.

Many of my phtalocyanine CDRs from 2002 (Ritek) and 2004 (CSI) are dead.

TY CDRs, at room temperature and normal humidity levels they’re extremely stable.

I’m [I]not[/I] saying that phtalocyanine is “bad” and cyanine is “good”, just pointing out that things are far more complicated than they seem and that the dye is just one of many variables for disc stability. I totally agree with [B]kg_evilboy[/B] mentioning that the manufacturing process and quality control are far more important than the dye type.

As for MAM/Mitsui, I really can’t see any reason to pay for propaganda when regular CDRs under good brands are just as good. And even if things are debatable with TY when it comes to DVDR, for CDRs they’re still the best choice for long-term IMO. :cool:

I chose to disagree with all accelerated aging tests. CD-R format is almost dead right now. If audio disc didn’t still use CD it would be dead and gone. Who needs a CD-R to work for 300 years?? We are almost onto a new replacement for DVD which is HD-DVD and blu ray. The actual drives that support CD-R won’t last 100 years.

How could verbatim 16x metal AZO be rated badly? I used to use it all the time for PS1 backups and they worked bloody good. Even the C1/C2 count is still great after 5 years of being played heaps/left out on the carpet etc etc.

Pthalo discs ALWAYS corroded and got crappy spots of crap in the recording layer. It never happened to my TY, Ritek, Pioneer and Mitsubishi cyanine CD-Rs.

For CD-R I would go for cyanine TY.

There have been good Pthalocyanine dye discs, original Mitsui for example. Also Ricoh used a variant which based on my own discs, is very stable.

Early Ritek Cyanine-based CD-R tho :Z , as others have already said, dye alone is not 100% responsible for wether a disc has good stability or not.

:disagree:

I still use a lot of CD-R. It is a waste to burn 600 MB on DVD-*, considering that CD-R would be cheaper for this(!), and there are still people around with no DVD drives :eek:

(I know that the price per megabyte is higher with CD!)

quite a lot of, actually. Here most of my acquaintances with a computer only have a CD-ROM drive, not even a CD-burner. Only those into multimedia and/or computer stuff have DVD drives, and among these only three have a DVD burner…

In shops, it’s clear from the choice on the shelves that most people are still buying CDR over DVDR. And I’m not sure it’s going to change because of DVDR: as [B]kg_evilboy[/B] mentions, it’s overkill to burn 100-500MB on a DVDR…

10 years ago, it was announced that floppy discs would disappear rapidly. I can still see lots of floppies on the shelves. :bigsmile:

Maybe we should start FDFreaks :wink:

Off-topic:
Should I buy Imation Made in USA floppies (the assorted colours ones) or Verbatim DataLife Made in Taiwan floppies? There’s no way to scan floppies IIRC :slight_smile:

Oh yeaaAAAh! :bigsmile:

Why don’t you wait till you have more data to burn and can fill the whole DVD?

Can I answer? :bigsmile: Well, CD-images, for example. Or some other info that can’t be mixed with other data types and can’t be filled up.

As for me, Phtalocyanine is :Z
All my phtalo CD-Rs degrade, lots already dead.
And from Cyanine CD-Rs only made by CMC Magnetics died.
TY, SKC (!great CDs, IMO, by the way! :cool: ) are still alive.

Well you can burn the images to the dvd as files and mount them with DaemonTools or Alcohol, I do that sometimes.