kProbe results with different drives

vbimport

#1

I’ve always scanned the DVDs I’ve burnt with my SOHW-1213s after burning them and recorded the results. However, this drive just died. (I created a thread about this recently in the hopes that somebody will have an idea as to how to recover it.) I did have an 811s on the shelf that I had used long ago, but took it out in favor of my NEC-2500. (I found that I got consistently cleaner burns with the NEC, no matter what media code I used.) I figured that I’d just connect this 811 drive and be able to scan with kProbe, just like with my 1213s. How wrong I was!

I received so many errors when scanning disks with the 811s that I know that it’s not accurate. (If the DVDs had that many errors on them, I’d be unable to use them in anything.) Further, when I flash the firmware back to previous versions, it seems to get more accurate the older the firmware I use, though still massively different than the results I got with the 1213s. I’m scanning at 4x on both drives and did the same exact disks, but with the 1213s, I’d get a PI average of 8 and with the 811 it’s 40!

I’ve attached the scan results of the same disk that I recently burnt with my NEC drive, scanned with both the 1213 (before it died) and the 811 (just now). Does anybody have any idea what’s going on and how I can get the 811 to scan accurately? Barring that, could somebody recommend a good drive to scan/burn with that’s not too expensive? (IDE interface, and burning isn’t really a high priority. If I can find another NEC 2500, I’ll jump on it for burning - that thing’ll burn just about anything I throw at it! I just now have no way to scan a DVD to see if I got a good burn or not.)


#2

Hi [B]Ruler2112[/B], welcome to CDFreaks! :slight_smile:

[quote=Ruler2112;2001420]I received so many errors when scanning disks with the 811s that I know that it’s not accurate.[/quote] No drive is “accurate” in the sense that it reports an objective number of PIE/PIF, since PIE/PIF are by their very nature a result of disc interacting with drive.

I have scans showing far higher PIE/PIF than your scan, and some of those discs read and play flawlessly.

I wouldn’t discard the LiteOn 811S as a scanner based just on the scans you have shown here; the newer LiteOn drives may be better readers and show lower PIE/PIF but that does not mean that they are more “accurate”.


#3

Thanks for the welcome DrageMaster. I’ve visited here off-and-on for quite a while and have referred many people here, but until now haven’t had a problem that wasn’t already solved by somebody else on here. :slight_smile:

I’m not certain I understand what you’re saying though. I assumed that the Lite-on drives had circuitry in them that would give an objective, true count of the errors present on a given disk when used with kProbe. Your post seems to indicate and my experimental results support that the results are as much a result of the drive/firmware being used to scan as it is the disk being scanned. This does not sound like a very positive indication of the error rates present on the disk…

I’ve always gone by the number of PI/PO errors as an indicator of whether the burn is good or whether I should re-burn it. Is this a flawed methodology? Should I simply try to copy all the data off the DVD to my hard drive and assume that if it copies, it’s a good burn instead?

I’m open to changing how I do things, but I’d like some way to find out if I have a good burn or if there are problems with the disk. With the 0R firmware on the 811 scanning the same disk as above, the PI max is well over 400 and the average is around 130, so I feel as though I have to change how I do something to verify the disks I burn. (It does suck if I change how I verify the disks - I’ve got 4+ years of kProbe scans of different media codes burned on the 5 model drives I have in the house burnt at different speeds and the error rates that resulted, so I’ve got a good idea of how and where to burn what.)

BTW, I LOVE your signature! :smiley: I’m a dragon sign on the Chinese calendar and am going to have to use it sometime. :wink:


#4

[quote=Ruler2112;2001478]I’m not certain I understand what you’re saying though. I assumed that the Lite-on drives had circuitry in them that would give an objective, true count of the errors present on a given disk when used with kProbe. Your post seems to indicate and my experimental results support that the results are as much a result of the drive/firmware being used to scan as it is the disk being scanned. This does not sound like a very positive indication of the error rates present on the disk…[/QUOTE] There is no objective true count of errors on a disc, regardless of how you scan it. There is only a subjective count of errors encountered by a drive reading/scanning the disc at one particular momemnt in time. Other drives may encounter a different number of errors, and the same drive may also encounter a different number of errors if you scan the sae disc again.

I’ve always gone by the number of PI/PO errors as an indicator of whether the burn is good or whether I should re-burn it. Is this a flawed methodology? Should I simply try to copy all the data off the DVD to my hard drive and assume that if it copies, it’s a good burn instead?
Disc Quality scanning is one method of testing a disc, read back e.g. in the form of Transfer Rate tests (which should be smooth with no large drops in speed) is another method, playing the disc in a standalone DVD player is a third method. More methods available wihout using professional testing equipment is jitter and beta tests.

Each of these methods only show a limited view of the quality of a disc, and any methodology that relies completely on only one of these methods can be considered a flawed methodology.

I use several drives for scanning at different scanning speeds, with jitter tests and sometimes beta tests and also Transfer Rate Tests, when testing a new combination of burner, media and burn speed. If all indicators show that results are good, then I usually only perform a verify and a high-speed quality scan on each individual disc.

I’m open to changing how I do things, but I’d like some way to find out if I have a good burn or if there are problems with the disk. With the 0R firmware on the 811 scanning the same disk as above, the PI max is well over 400 and the average is around 130, so I feel as though I have to change how I do something to verify the disks I burn. (It does suck if I change how I verify the disks - I’ve got 4+ years of kProbe scans of different media codes burned on the 5 model drives I have in the house burnt at different speeds and the error rates that resulted, so I’ve got a good idea of how and where to burn what.)
Firmware can change how a drive reads discs. I’ve seen examples of firmware improving reading ability on two other LiteOn drive models, and this also impacts reported PIE/PIF.

You decide for yourself how much time you’re willing to spend on each disc. The less time you spend testing, the higher the risk of not detecting a problem.

Personally I’d get a newer LiteOn drive if you want to scan every disc you burn.

BTW, I LOVE your signature! :smiley: I’m a dragon sign on the Chinese calendar and am going to have to use it sometime. :wink:
Yes I like that quote too. I can’t take credit for inventing it though - someone unknown to me came up with it, probably inspired by the quote from Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings: [I]Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards for they are subtle and quick to anger.[/I]


#5

Could you recommend a particular model drive for me to look for? If I could get one that burns well in addition to the more advanced scanning features, it’d be even better. (The NEC2500 is the last burner I bought if you don’t count the POS Optiarc AD5560A that came in my Dell laptop…)

Also, would I be correct in thinking that you use the DVDScan tool I saw in the page and a half of sticky’s at the top of this forum to perform your testing?

Thank you very much for all the help you’ve given me. :bow: It sounds like I’ve got significant amount of learning to do. When I last investigated burners/scanning/etc, the PI/PIF error scans were the best available that I was able to find. (I still call PIF errors PO errors much of the time because that’s what kProbe 1 called them and I used that program for so long!)


#6

[quote=Ruler2112;2001493]Could you recommend a particular model drive for me to look for? If I could get one that burns well in addition to the more advanced scanning features, it’d be even better.[/QUOTE] I suggest a LiteOn 20A1 series or 20A4 series drive for scanning DVD media (not CD media). They also have pretty good burn quality, but there are better burners in my experience such as e.g. the Pioneer DVR-112 series.

Also, would I be correct in thinking that you use the DVDScan tool I saw in the page and a half of sticky’s at the top of this forum to perform your testing?
I only rarely use DVDScan. Mostly I scan with Nero CD-DVD Speed on my LiteOn and BenQ drives, and for more thorough testing I use PxScan/PxView ith my Plextor drives.

I only use DVDScan when I want a second opinion on a beta test (first opinion being my Plextor PX-760A or PX-712A) or a third opinion on Focus Error / Tracking Error (first and second being Plextor with PlexTools and BenQ with QSuite).

For PIE/PIF scanning DVDScan annoys for me for a couple of reasons so I don’t use it for that.

Thank you very much for all the help you’ve given me.
You’re welcome! :slight_smile:


#7

Everything DrageMester says is dead on accurate; if I could add a suggestion, I would keep the 1633 as your scanner and spend the money on the Pioneer. It is a significantly better burner on a much wider range of media and scanning is not improved by a “better” reader as was mentioned above. Your scans should be looked at as a comparative measure to give you an indication of any problems in a burn from the same drive and (properly) the same type of media. After searching for years for the perfect scan and finding it, I now spend much less time scanning and more watching. The Pioneer and either Verbatim media is just about a fool proof combo.


#8

I would second the Pioneer DVR-112 - excellent drive, and it does a superb job with RitekR03 @8x. As for the 1633, I find it an excellent and reliable scanner. In my experience, it is more accurate than the LiteOn 20A4P or A1P for scanning PIE/PIF at 4x. I often experience scanning issues with the 20A4P reading Pioneer burns above 8x (patterns in the PIE).


#9

If I could keep the 1633 as a scanner, I’d be more than happy to do so. However, the second sentence of my original post states that it’s now dead. :sad: More details can be found here - if anybody has ideas to bring it back, I’d be happy to try them! If it weren’t for this drive dying, I’d still be in ignorant bliss, thinking that all the burned disks I have made over the past 4-5 years are quality burns; now I don’t really know what I have. :frowning:

I understand that the Pioneer DVR-112 is the drive to get if I want faster and better quality burns. (I believe I’m good with my NEC 2500 for now; I’m OK with the fact that it only burns at 4x on most media.) For the scanning of disks, should I buy another Lite-on or a Plextor or Ben-Q? It sounds from your post, DrageMaster, that a Plextor might be a good choice because it has ‘PxScan/PxView’ and ‘PlexTools’ to test different aspects of the disks. It seems awful expensive compared to other brands though - $70 for a Plextor PX800A compared to a LiteOn DH-20A4P-04 for $25. <Newegg> Would this be a correct assumption? Ben-Q used to make absolute junk when I last bought drives; would I be correct thinking that the quality of their drives has significantly improved since?

I don’t really want to go crazy testing my burnt disks, but do want to be relatively certain that I’m going to be able to play/read the disks. I haven’t had any problems with testing the PI/PO error rates exclusively <knock on wood>, but would like to update how I scan my disks to be more modern.


#10

BTW, the only DVR112 that Newegg has is an open-box item. Is it being discontinued? They do have a DVR115.


#11

[quote=Ruler2112;2001626]For the scanning of disks, should I buy another Lite-on or a Plextor or Ben-Q? It sounds from your post, DrageMaster, that a Plextor might be a good choice because it has ‘PxScan/PxView’ and ‘PlexTools’ to test different aspects of the disks. It seems awful expensive compared to other brands though - $70 for a Plextor PX800A compared to a LiteOn DH-20A4P-04 for $25. <NEWEGG>Would this be a correct assumption? Ben-Q used to make absolute junk when I last bought drives; would I be correct thinking that the quality of their drives has significantly improved since?[/quote] The Plextor and BenQ drives I use for scanning are not made anymore and are very hard to find, so I suggest getting a LiteOn drive for scanning DVDs as I stated above.

The last “true” Plextor drive was the PX-760 series. Anything after that, including the PX-800 and PX-810 series, is re-branded stuff which doesn’t support PxScan/PxView and PlexTools Q-Check.

The last “true” BenQ drive was the DW1650/DW1655. Anything after that is re-branded LiteOn drives and can be used for scanning just like LiteOn drives.


#12

DrageMester:

Are the last BenQ 1620/1640/1655 and Plextor PX-712A/716A/760A the only drives that in addition to PI/PO also report out beta and jitter?


#13

[quote=FUBARinSFO;2002746]DrageMester:

Are the last BenQ 1620/1640/1655 and Plextor PX-712A/716A/760A the only drives that in addition to PI/PO also report out beta and jitter?[/quote] You can also scan for jitter on LiteOn 5S, 6S, 20A1, 20A3, and 20A4 series drives using Nero CD-DVD Speed.

You can also scan for beta using the same LiteOn drives (I think, at least the ones I have) using DVDScan. It seems to me that the reported beta differs significantly from beta reported by Plextor drives.

AFAIK there’s no way to scan beta on the BenQ DW1655/1650/1640/1620.


#14

[quote=DrageMester;2002764]
AFAIK there’s no way to scan beta on the BenQ DW1655/1650/1640/1620.[/quote]

Thanks for the distinction about the Benq drives. I’ve read quite a few posts on this forum now, generally in praise of the BenQ drives (as well as the Plextor drives), but hadn’t seen this. Nero doesn’t report it, and I’ve had in my mind the Plextools tests, which only work with Plextor drives.


#15

I just wanted to thank you for your advice on buying the 20A4P. I got one from NewEgg for something absurd like $24 shipped or something and got it yesterday. Installed it, burnt a data backup on the cheap-o CMC MAG M01, then did scans on it. HOLY CLEAN SCAN BATMAN!!! :clap::smiley:

I’m going to do a few more disks with it, but I may buy another. I just checked and they’re $23 with free shipping from NewEgg, so they’re certainly cheap enough and burning that clean at 16x is ridiculous! (Like, Devin Hester returning more than one kick per game for a touchdown ridiculous! :wink: :iagree: )

What do you guys use to scan your disks with? I’ve tried CD-DVD Speed that came with Nero 6 and kProbe2. I’m planning on trying DVDScan in the next few days as well, but I’m curious as to what the general consensus is on scanning software. I’ve heard people talk about jitter and beta, but don’t see those in either of the tools I’ve used. (Nero mentions jitter, but nothing about it displays on the graphs.)

Anyways, just wanted to say thanks again.