Known 1650 issues with cdspeed DQ scans?

I’ve done plenty of searches before posting this, and usually the answer can be found in older threads, but I’m not sure what to make of this situation.

Any idea what would cause a DW1650 to burn a disc that shows pif total=463, max=2, when scanned in a plextools with a 716a, but scanning the same disc with cdspeed and the 1650, it shows 2500 pif, with a max of 14?

The pif are low during the cdspeed scan, until it reaches 4.1 gb, and then it just does a massive jump on the graph, increasing until the end of the scan. PIE does the same thing on the graph, at the same point.
I don’t have the png handy, but basically, the scan looks great until 4.1 gb, then it’s bad news.

This same disc scanned in a second 1650, resulted in even higher pif, as well as POF errors. (23000 pif, 1165 POF)

Cdspeed 4.7
firmware BCFC
Qsuite Not installed.
Media - yuden000 T02 (sony 8x +r)
Disc was created with Cdspeed create disc.

I’m currently testing two 1650 drives and trying to determine they’re working properly.

What are the odds of two bad drives?
I say that, as burning a test disc with the other 1650, resulted in a disc that failed in a plex scan, and showed the same pif rise at the end of the disc, in cdspeed scans as well.

Does this sound like a drive issue, firmware issue, cdspeed issue, or simply a result of not using Qsuite?
I can’t find a source of older versions of cdspeed, such as 4.6, or 4.5, to see if that might be the problem.

Any thoughts?

Post the scan in the Benq. Different drives perform differently in how they scan, in some cases much differently. Also, Benq drives over report (and inaccurately represent) error levels when jitter reaches above about 12% so I would not be at all suprised if that has played a role in what you are seeing.

Ok, in order
1.Test disc scanned with drive that created it.
2.Test disc scanned with drive that created it, couple hours later
3.Test disc scanned with second benq 1650
4.Plextools scan …results were Pif max=2, Pif Total=463, Avg 0.00





To avoid any confusion, you’ll notice the numbers I referenced in my first post, don’t match precisely, as I was going from memory for the first couple scans.
I said 14, but it was 13…and instead of 2500, it was 2558.

Also, I had to do new scan for pic3 since I didn’t save a png originally, but my original numbers were definitely pif total=23739, max=31 and POF 1165 as I had written them down. For this new scan, it’s even worse.

Not important really, but I thought I should acknowledge it.

Well jitter doesn’t seem to really be a factor (although it could be exaggerating the errors on the 3rd scan at the edge), clearly the Benq has found something it doesn’t like in the burns though. You have to take any of these tests with a grain of salt as they aren’t a foolproof way of testing discs. Even with the POFs in your third scan, I would not be suprised if it that drive is still able to complete a Transfer Rate Test. BTW, I think I’ve seen one other person on here post some similar scans with their 1650 and I think it was even T02, although this is from memory so I’m not sure on it.

Are you seeing this with a lot of discs, just this disc, just this batch of discs, or?

Yeah, if I recall, trt was a steady smooth climb, despite the extreme results in pic 3. I wouldn’t feel comforatable with that disc for archives though.

These burners are new, so I’ve tested a few discs only (same brand, different batches), as well as scan older burns from the plex, to try and get some sort of reference. I’m not familiar enough with interpreting cdspeed results, when compared to plextools.
Scanning older discs, none display these problem results so far, but the numbers are inconsistent.

With the Benq burns, it’s the erratic upward pif slopes, that aren’t evident at all in the plextool scan, that concerns me. If the first disc had failed in plextools too, at least this would make a little more sense.
Then I could just assume it was a bad burn, or media that didn’t agree with the benq. But this is quality media, and the burn seems fine in the plex with not even a slight increase at the end of the scan.

Another test disc I burned with the second 1650, had the same upward PIE/PIF slopes at the end, but the scan results between the two drives were more consistent. Unfortunately, that disc failed in plextools.
At least there was a correlation between the different scans this time.

I don’t want to waste a bunch of media, but if I can determine the hardware itself is ok, firmware and qsuite tweaks can be sorted out later.
Could this be an issue with the reader? I’m wondering what I should do to rule out hardware malfunction.

Do benq burners have a break-in period at all? I don’t mean with regards to the solid burn media learning, but in general?
Initially, the one burner seemed to have erratic clustered pif spikes when scanning, that wouldn’t be there, if I scanned the same disc a couple more times later in the day. These seem to be disappearing, as time goes on.

With regards to the jitter, if it’s increasing to 12, during the scan with the second 1650 (3rd pic), is that the fault of the drive or the disc? It was lower, when scanned in the original burner, as seen in the first two scans.

This second 1650 so far, has produced a burn that failed in the plextor, and seems to have displayed higher error totals, on several scans.

Since every drive is at least a little different you are going to see some change from drive to drive, some report lower jitter and errors than others. It sounds like your 2nd drive may not be as good as the first in either reading or writing. Since you said that one of the burns with the error peak at the edge from the 2nd drive also failed in your Plextor drive, while the errors reported near the edge are likely exaggerated they are at least some indication of lower burn quality. It would be interesting to see how these would scan in a Mediatek-based burner (Liteon, Samsung, etc.). I’m not really sure what more to say except that your Benq drives are probably not as good as readers as your Plextor so they have a greater sensitivity to whatever is causing those errors to be reported at the edge. Scanning is not a perfect science regardless of equipment used, as you are finding out with occasional conflicting results like these.

[B]C. B. DeMented:[/B]

If I am understanding what you have described correctly, your BenQ drives are writing T02 media which when scanned on BenQ drives seem to be problematic but show perfect TRT (at 16x)? Same discs scanned on a Plextor drive show no problems. Also, older discs burnt by Plextor drive show no problems when scanned in BenQ.

Have you tried writing other discs (not T02 media) on your BenQ drives to see if this problem is isolated to that particular media or all media has the same issues. Also, do both BenQ drives use the same firmware?

[B]scoobiedoobie:[/B]

Yeah, the reality that scan results will vary from drive to drive, same model, or otherwise, is evident in various examples on these forums, but I didn’t recall these kinds of drastic discrepancies, when all the drives in question were normally well regarded in these areas. :frowning:
For example, that article a while back, where they scanned a disc 5 times under each scanning program…kprobe, plextools, cdspeed…with a variety of burners; although the numbers between the plex and the benq in that situation didn’t match, taking the software scanning differences into account, there was still some correlation. (ie: The benq didn’t show those discs as a coaster, while the plex showed them as a great burn.)

Scan comparisons
If that article was a typical example of the variances to expect between a plex scan and a benq scan, then the benq I’m testing, aren’t holding up very well so far.
The 2nd BenQ is really looking bad at this point, since it keeps producing coasters, 2 more since my last post.

[B]TL0[/B]

Everything you said was correct, with one exception; several discs burned with the second 1650, have resulted in bad scans in all drives, including the plextor.
But yes, at least one disc, which scanned well in the plex, showed serious problems when scanned with either of the benq. I’ll confirm the TRT goes to 16x, but it was definitely a steady upward slope without any dips in the graph.

Older discs burned with the plex, generally seem to scan well in the benq, though there might have been some higher error rates, when scanned with the second 1650. (all the older discs have been T02 so far)

Yeah, both have the firmware they came with…bcfc.
I think I have some older maxell media I could try, but so far, it’s only been different batches of T02 tested.

Appreciate the responses.
Thanks

OK, I burned a test dvd in the second 1650 earlier with some maxell media, and scanned it in all 3 drives again. No drastic pif slopes at the end, though the total pif was still too high for my liking.
The DQ scan results between the two BenQ were very similar this time.

I’m hoping these results might be a step toward ruling out a hardware issue, but I should probably burn another maxell in the first 1650, and see if it scans in a similar way between the two drives.

Hopefully this is just a firmware issue, though seems some people were getting really good results with sony T02 and firmware BCFC, based on some threads I read through earlier. :rolleyes:

I can post the png files if anyone is interested.

[B]C. B. DeMented:[/B]

It may be useful to flash one of your BenQ drives (preferably the worse one) to another firmware and see if the problem persists. My own experience with BCFC were quite negative. I would suggest either BCDC or BCIC. Or you can try the 1655 firmwares or even Philips equivalent firmwares, all will work on your BenQ hardware.

Maybe bad medium, try burning slower, 4x.
Read about qsuite, here you can delete de learning about de dvd and then start fresh(burn 3 times to learn again) then the 4 scan again.

TLO
Yeah, time to test the other firmware.
Were any of your negative BCFC results with T02?

I did another maxell burn on the remaining 1650, so that both drives had burned one, along with scans, for comparisons.
Scans are getting more consistent between the two Benq. The burn results aren’t great, but once again, no pif slopes at the edge of the discs, and the pif/pie totals are almost identical, after scanning the disc on both 1650 drives.

I still can’t explain those first T02 burns, but with the later results, it seems hardware issues can probably be ruled out. What do you think?

Peter4000, yeah, I initially wanted to see how they burned without Qsuite, but I was aware of it’s functions. I wasn’t sure how many discs it required to learn, so thanks.
I’ve had some poor results trying to burn 8x media at 4x on the plex, but I wouldn’t be opposed to burning at 4x, if it works.
Maybe there should be one slow burn before flashing the firmware.

These burners are giving me a headache.
Flashed one to BCDC, and first Test disc I tried to burn in cdspeed, resulted in a “no additional sense information” error before it was finished.
The disc had tested fine for that burn speed in Qsuite’s Qscan, so it should have been ok. :frowning:
These burners do not like the T02 at all.
I’ll flash to BCIC and see what happens.

If firmware change is not correcting the issues, then it maybe hardware related. Try burning a T02 disc from that batch on your Plextor, if no problem, then you can most probably eliminate media being faulty, as T02 shouldn’t be [I]that [/I] incompatible with BenQ 165* drives and I’ve never had such major problems with T02 in my 1650.

[I]If[/I] it is a potential hardware issue, you should think about getting replacements if possible.

How are the drives hooked up, master/slave on the same channel? Which controller, onboard or add in, which chipset? Are the BenQs and the Plextor in the same computer?

Visual inspection of the discs, any specks, blotches, air bubbles and so on?

Qyngali
I checked a few discs as I’m writing this post, and they look flawless across the surface. Also checked one of the burns with extreme pif and there’s nothing obvious at the outer edge.
The drives are all secondary IDE masters, onboard controller, separate systems.

TLO
This batch generally burns ok in the plex, though it hasn’t been one of the better batches of sony T02.
It appears drive 2 is just a flawed drive. Most of the T02 test discs it burned, result in PIF ramps or blocks at the end of the scan.
These either scan as coasters in the plex, or just dvds with a couple thousand too many pif errors.
Neither firmware changes or Solidburn active for known media helped.
I tried moving it to another pc, and first burn was actually ok. For a moment, I wondered if that suggested a faulty ide cable or controller in the first pc, but with a second burn resulting in another coaster, I’d assume the cable/controller wasn’t a factor.

Drive 2…R.I.P.
Still sorting out the first drive.

I think the problem here is very well known and simple.
No professional advises you to use a Benq drive for both writing and reading. Benq drives are very good writers but their read ability is weak, so you can’t rely on their scans so much cause sometimes they give you unbelievably different scans from other drives. Personally I think even a test of using a single DVD in two 1650s can not be relied so much.
I’ve heard many professionals recommending people to use a Benq 1650 or 1655 for burning and a liteon drive for reading. I personally have a 1650 and a Liteon 812s, but since I’ve bought my 1650 just days ago I haven’t yet tried the comparison between their read abilities and the scan of a single dvd in these 2 drives. I’ll soon send a new post about this.

Who are these professionals you speak of?