Is Recording Full Disk "Not Recommended?"

I’ve tried to record my disks to the very maximum capacity to save money, but even one or two failures makes going to the very end of a disk not effective IF it makes any difference?

I’ve read the “blank media tests” and looked at the graphs and comments and I haven’t found anyone really showing higher failure rates at the end of a disk although I have read comments “in general” to this effect.

Is there any hard data to this point AND

regardless==is there a good rule of thumb about how many megabytes to leave empty at the end of the disk–or just go for the max??

PS–and if a burn indeed finalizes (as most of mine do) is the worst that can happen simply that a files becomes bad at its end or does the whole disk become unusable?? From my experience, I have had both results but can’t really identify what is causing the failure?

Can’t wait for holographic–almost here??

The most influential factor in disc failure is probably disc quality. I’m afraid you will see higher failure rates with crap discs, and it’s nearly always towards the outer edge.

As for hard data; basic physics will tell you any disc is more likely to be poorly written/read towards the outside of the disc, mainly due to the disc surface passing progressively faster under the optical pickup (although some drives have a strategy to slow down as they write to accomodate this). Playing back a DVD title will usually occur at 1x speed so this isn’t usually a problem, but data files might need several re-tries at selectively lower read speeds to get all the information off.

If you’re having trouble with whole previously-finalised discs becoming unusable, then this suggests the TOC information at the inner edge is corrupt, which further suggests that the quality of disc is suspect. What brand/MID are you using?

Personally, I don’t have a hard rule, but with very good Ricoh +Rs at 18p each I don’t usually try and fill a disc more than half way.

Finally, if you want to recover material from a corrupt disc then I can recommend ISOBuster (you have to pay the modest fee to actually recover anything).

Imkidd==thanks for your complete advice WITH personal experience.

Gosh==you really don’t record after the last half??? That sounds outrageous?

I actually “used to” record to the very end and can’t tell that it has caused any problems BUT now I am leaving about 200 megabytes just because of input like yours.

Yesterday I burned one disk at exactly 4.37 GB on TY media because I was going to make another copy immediately on TDK. (I back up important stuff on two different brands!) and interestingly the burner reported that there was not enough room on the disk to record. I put in another TY and it burned==so TY has a few more megabytes than other brands? I guess that also shows the burner is actually measuring the disk and not using a preset value??

I wouldn’t call any media any good if it wouldn’t record to “very near” the edge? I have had bad media (eg Sonic X4 MU001 was a total write off) so now I stick with TY and have less than 1% failure.

I have seen bad TOC’s but as stated==cant really tell if a disk is failing because of edge failures. I use dvddecrypter for most saves and ISOBuster when decrypter wont do. I’m finding that IsoBuster too often gives me garbled out of synch recoveries but then it also will recover perfectly when decrypter reports there is no disk. All these tools are variable??

Thanks for the input. I’ve got to learn how to read those test result graphs better than I do?///bobbo.

OK it sounds like you have much more experience than I anticipated. Your observations about TY vs. TDK are interesting and you might consider putting them down over on the Media forum here. BTW the burner will take its space info from the disc information tracks, so you could manually compare blank brands using something like CD Speed and see if there’s a declared difference in capacity.

I think one’s own burning strategy is governed by habit and experience. I tend to only use <75% of a disc because I’m recording directly-acquired DVB-T transmissions; the encoding of which is very efficient and a 2 hr program is never more than 3 GB. Therefore it’s also a convenience to still have one title per disc, especially if that means I don’t have to burn a second backup to guarantee preservation.

Glad you’ve used ISOBuster relatively successfully - if you get an out-of-sync recovery then you could always try Project X to re-sync the A/V.

TaiyoYuden is about the best media available. :smiley:

The data stream passes under the laser at a constant rate. In order to do this the disc has to spin faster as the laser reaches the outer edge.

I’m afraid this sounds like nonsense. What “data stream” are you referring to?

The data encoded on the disc, the “bits”, the ones and zeros that make up the digital information. The data has to pass the laser at a constant rate.
Since the inner portion of the disc is smaller than the outer portion, the disc has to speed up as the laser moves outward. The data doesn’t pass the laser faster, the disc goes faster so the data rate can remain the same.
Visualize runners on a track. The runner on the outside of the track would have to run faster than the runner on the inside just to stay even.

This is an excellent string for me.

I also have found that their is a variation on how much of the media is useable. That TY is my favorite because of reliability and compatibility.

For leaglebob, [B]I have found that after burning, like you did to your TY media, then getting the message about the TDK media, it is wise to re-boot your PC in between burns. [/B] I find this especially if there is some kind of warning or error before or after a rip or burn.
[B]From my experience, I like to run my favorite “donationware” software Ccleaner first, then re-boot, then burn or rip. I have found much more success that way.
[/B]

I am not sure at all about this, but is there a [B]a small difference in the limitation between a DVD-R and a DVD+R ?[/B]

I also have experienced where I might have some software telling me that some media does not have enough room, then I call another software product and it works perfectly without warning.

I think it is a VERY good idea [B]not [/B]to go to the very end. Great point about archiving important data.
Where I have found problems when I stuff media, is when trying to restore or playing media where I went to the very end. Of course the brand makes a big difference. I think 75 % is very for important archiving, but 50% might be a little bit conservative, BUT safe.

Lastly, I have the issues about cutting a burn before the end to happen more with DVD + or - [B]RWs[/B]. Mostly with my Sony DVDs. But, I never know about until I use it.

I also have found that every so often, it is a good idea for me to do a [B]full format [/B] on my DVD RWs to get them back a reliable.

I like to create image file backups of media (.iso or .nrg) and keep them on a hard drive. Then I sometimes burn the image file to a RW DVD, which I will place in a stand alone DVD player to make sure that the image file backup is still good. Restoring from a image file is so easy and fast from Nero and CloneDVD2. The image file is a bit by bit exact copy of the original source.

I don’t think I ever had any limitation issues with TY media. BUT, the issues about lingering garbage in RAM that might effect the burn/rip is media independent and has been something that has made ripping/burning/playing/executing more reliable for me.

I’m sorry but this just isn’t right and the analogy misleading. At least it should be the track which is moving, rather than the runners.

If a rigid disc is spinning at a constant rotational speed, then the outer edge is covering more distance than the inner over the same period of time. It’s basic physics: even though the angular velocity is the same at any point on the disc surface, the linear velocity changes in proportion to the distance from the centre. There’s a good explanation here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant_Angular_Velocity

Have you ever looked at the different speeds of the inner and outer edges of a fairground roundabout?

To keep a constant linear velocity (CLV) then the disc has to slow down as the laser moves out.

If you burn a disc on a drive in CLV mode (usually 4x on new DVD drives or 16x on CD drives) then you will hear the drive slowing down as the laser goes from the inside outward.

You’re probably right about this. I may have got it backwards. But the point is the data moves past the laser at a constant rate and the transport adjusts the speed in order to achieve this.

Only where the drive is writing and operating under CLV, but this is by no means the only possible strategy.

The majority of drives read at constant angular velocity (CAV). In this case, using something like DVD Decrypter, you can even see the data transfer rate increasing even though the drive speed is constant.

jolo==looks like you’ve done a lot of trial and error guessing too? I’m going to try the “full format” erase routine on some of my glitchy rw’s and see if that helps. Other than bad RW recordings from my Liteon’s, I find my computer to be very stable under all conditions. No need for reboots, closing other programs, or conflicting software==So I lucked out there!

You know, it is “interesting” trying to learn “what is” re this computer stuff. I read these forums and no one seems to have the problems in burning dvd’s that I do and I wonder if I just got some bad machines? Then I find that “some/many/an unstated number” of folks are only burning their dvd’s half or 3/4 th’s full while I have been going to the end. Others might be burning at X2 speed? (I burn at constant X4 regardless of media). Sure would be informtive to have a “lan party” and see how we all go about our recording activities? I’m sure each of us knows something the others could use?

Thanks////bobbo. ((Still no rule of thumb based on “authority?”===smile!!!)

leaglebob,

To tell you the truth, I did get to a point where [B]I was doing to much experimenting !!. [/B] What I mean is, the time I was taking to try so many of the suggestions that were made on here, on videohelp.com, etc, etc, etc, etc started to drive me crazy and [B]I became more pragmatic. [/B]
I stopped trying for the “ultimate” resolution, absolute perfection, the faastest, most perfect way and I certainly stopped using from 4 to 10 applications each time I wanted to encode.

While I am absolutely NOT a multimedia engineer, I have been in the Information Technology field many years and doing about everything. After a while, I started doing multi-media type of stuff at home and it has turjned into a hobby. So much of t he business application field is canned garbage, where is so much creativity in doing multi-media, it reminds me of when I first got hired as a Jr Programmer and worked on custom applications.

In any case, after years of banging my head against the wall, I learned to stop assuming anything when something does not work. To try to NOT get wtuck in the trees and look at the forest. To back of assuming that when something is wrong that it is highly technical. While it can be, I will try to step back, blank out my brain and go step by step and eliminate possiblities.
In general, techies tend to dive in head first into the greatest tech detail to early and at lot of times the the computer might be unplugged.

For example, when you mentioned the [B]coasters from made from your Lite-on [/B], my demented mind (please this is not about any lack of credibility on your behalf Legalbob), I thought, how does he know it was the hardware?. I say that, because I say that in my mind if I have a [B]“coaster attack”. [/B]

I have had to send back a CD/DVD reader writer in the past, but it is my experience that, the hardware tends not to be the problem. Hardware problems tend to be very consistent and usually occur in the beginning. But, a mix of a brand of media mixed with a burner that does not have the firmware to support a particular brand of media certainly will create problems where it “sort of, kind of” is the hardware, if the hardware vendor has not provided updated driver/firmware.

Here is a list of some issues that I can tell you, CAN create coasters that are not so obvious:

[ul][li]Definately make sure that you hard drive is NOT fragmented !!
[/li][li]Hard drives that have less than 20% free space (especially the system drive), can definately have all sorts of strange problems. Especially with functions that use a lot of resources.
[/li][li]With a hard drive, if you have empty disk space and your drive(s) have little fragmentation, make sure that they are in good working order. Many of the de-framentors will run a chkdsk , before going into a defrag and will stop if disk drive issues are found. Can’t hurt to do a chkdsk /f, if there are some inconsistant problems, especially on your system drive.
[/li][li]If ever there is an any type of error message/warning message from encoding , burning, reading, etc re-boot your PC before trying to burn/rip.
[/li][li]In general re-booting before encoding,burning,ripping is a good habit to get into.
[/li][li]Either yesterday or the day before, I received an message that Nero could not read my blank media. I re-booted, then no problems.
[/li][li]Always a good idea NOT to have anything in load into your RAM at startup that you do not know what it is for, or do not need. There are some great web sites where you can find anything that you see loaded and do not understand what it is for.
[/li][li]I personaly use a great freeware product Ccleaner a lot, which cleans up all tmp or temp files, cahce that is floating around, etc. It also has a part of it where you can uninstall apps as well as remove items in your startup that you feel are not needed. One of the checks it automatically does is look at your startup routines and makes sure that they exist, it does the same thing with your registry. Amazing application. Temp files and a lot of cache files can linger and might create problems.
[/li][li]I take extra time if burning, to first burn to an inage file. Then I will use something like Daemon tools to create a virtual drive with the image file and listen to it, watch it, or if data, just explore it before I do my burn. This also makes it easy if you want more than one copy.
[/li][li]For whate4ver reason, I have found that RWs tend to be a little less reliable on stand alone DVD players than -+R DVD or -R CDs. Doing a full format has brought back to live some RWs which I thought were coaster material. Even on brand new media.
[/li][li]If you leave about 20% or so at the end of the media, rather than 1%, how much are you really losing? Media is so much less expensive than it used to be. But, I do the burn first to hard drive thing first anyway before burning to my media.
[/li][li]The burn to image file first is where I have caught many errors THAT I MADE. Meaning I messed up on the content of what I thought I was burning.
[/li][li]Making sure that you have the lastest firmware/drivers for your burner/ripper.
[/li][li]If you are using a brand of media that you have not used before, not a bad idea to see it is supported by the vendor of the media/burner first. That seems to be less and less of a problem, but used to be a royal pain. That certainly is a issue currently with the LDs.
[/li][li]If ripping, definatelty do a quick wipe of the media before inserting into the drive. I always look first on burns as well, even if new.
[/li][li]This has been a nig on for automobile players and also for stand alone players as well as PC players/writers. Clean the unit every so often. Dust is such an enemy. It can create heat and lots of problems.
[/li][li]Do you have enough virtual memory? I have mine virtual memory split among two drives for performance reasons.
[/li][li]In general, I guess what I am saying is the environment of the PCs, RAM, hardware, software, etc can effect burning and ripping and really everything. BUT …the more computer intensive the operation, the greater the possibility of some kind of PC related issue to come to the surface. I would say that really is a large reason NOT to burn to the very end of your media. You are giving yourself some slack against having a problem.
[/li][/ul]
Click here to get info on Ccleaner

Interesting discussion guys :iagree:.

My feeling is that this thread has become mainly about burning on a computer, and therefore would benefit from being moved to the PC burners forum. You’d be more likely to get more relevant opinions based on ‘authority’ :p.

If no-one objects by tomorrow, I’ll move it (with a redirect link left here).

imkidd–move as you think best. Your own discussion about angular velocity was interesting as well? (Is there a geometry sub-forum?) I was reminded of Zeno’s Paradox wherein the dot on two concentric circles covers the same distance even though one is on a larger circumference. ((The dot on the smaller circle “skids” right?))

jolo–I think langa recommeded ccleaner a while back (c is for crap I recall?) I found I have it already installed but have to visit the website to find out exactly what does happen when you check or don’t check all those boxes in the menu commands. Turns out, I like “most of” the “c” that is on my system. In the meantime, I’ve been using jv16 power tools but I must admit I have never seen a performance difference in the normal maintenance I continue to do? I do notice turning off background programs helps my system not to bog down or stall–even though the burn safe program with my benq burner seems to work flawlessly-not a single buffer overrun no matter what I do, except that once I turned the computer off. My only overrun coaster! (smile)

Back on Topic==there are so many variables, it is hard to identify exactly what is going wrong. For me, it seems to be the media as the biggest variable? Thats why THIS thread was about how much to leave blank at the end of the disk hoping that would nail down one possible issue? I have also posted in the Panasonic Forum trying to decide if dvd-ram media might provide the stability I desire in rewriteable formats==again the media. In the end, I too try to turn my mind off. I try to remember this is a HOBBY and supposed to be fun?

//////bobbo

leagalebob;

I gave a OVERLONG answer, that was NOT off topic to make a point that I think it is an excellent practice, as I have learned , the hard way. not to go 100 full on blank media. But I was also making the point that I think nailing down why there is a particular failure might not be black and white.

It is a GREAT point about being save with not storing to a maximum to me seems like a general rule about ALL types of storage that I can think of. From flash RAM, Hard drives, blank CD/DVD media, about anything. With that crazy list of possibilities I listed, it would make a burn less suspecible for anything negative to occur.

Another item about not using the entire media is a speed one. I need help from some of the engineers here, because I forgot some of the details I just read, when it was talking about TY burning speeds.
I believe I read about settings that can be done and most burning occurs in a variable speed way. When that is done, quality media like TY burns faster on around the outside and slower as it get closer to being full.

About Ccleaner (yes it is Crap Cleaner), it is important to learn about the settings so one is not suprised. leagalebob, I think if I get into more Ccleaner stuff, that would be going off topic to much. PLEASE send me a private email about it and I will tell you some specifics. I believe there is a newer version out.

I used to have JV16 tools, but do not use it anymore.

I have experienced what you have when you mentioned that “the background programs help your system not to bog or stall.”

This can effect success. My goal is to put things together to make my performance and success rate very steady and not have those bumps in the road. It is more about being consistent rather than have sudden slowdowns, freezing up, etc.
In general I like never to go past 80% full on disk drives or media.
I really like it when burning/ripping, etc go smooth and my results go as anticipated.

There are few things worswe than needing to rely on burnt media and only to find out, when restoring that the burn or backup was not as successful as one thought. I think experiencing that will cost a lot more than saving on leaving some of the media empty.

Leaglebob, I totally agree that in general, the software for burning/ripping is way better than before and that the seems to be more and more ways that problems are avoided or detected before a burn or rip is finished.
Because of those burn save programs, I might do some do some web browsing while burning/ripping. Not that this is advisable, but a year or two ago, I would never dare to do anything else on my PC while a burn or rip was going on.
Some of the burn/rip programs allow you to make them a lower priority which is a good idea when multi-tasking. Also some programs are better than others on how amny system resources they use.
An example is that I am pretty amazed when I use Clonedvd2 and see how few resources get used , when compared to Nero.

BUT… it is usually a good idea to not do anything when a burn/rip is going on.

Another topic that is not for this string, what do you do with you coasters? Like I have said before, most of my coasters are due to my own negligence in not following my own advise.

Jon

Hey Jon–overlong (if it was) is good. I was commenting on MY post being off topic==what does Zeno’s paradox have to do with creating coasters? Right now, I am saving all my coasters hoping to find a program that will recover them all before I re-record them all? I am convinced the “data” is still there. These systems/programs are not designed for the home video enthusiast!!==eg==no reason at all for disk recovery programs not to recover 99.9 % of whats there just because there is a glitch in the Table of Contents??

What scared me off about ccleaner is that it did not indicate there was a preview screen or a undo function such as IS evident with jv16. As long as jv16 seems to work and is comfortable why play with a different program? But with your good experience, I will play with it, because that is what a geek will do! (smile!)

I have played with resource priority but again all my default settings seem to work perfectly so wanting good burns, thats what I stick with. And again, I purposefully overstressed my system using defragged files from 3 hard drives while opening and closing programs, playing games, and web surfing==>zero coasters. If I could only get my freestanding Liteons and Ilo’s to work that way with rewriteable media, I would have even more dvd’s than I already do? ((Truly, how much land does a man really need?))//bobbo.

Unfortunately my geometry recall is crap :confused:, but the principles of rotational mechanics and the associated angular forces have somehow stayed :eek:.

The only ‘Zeno’s Paradox’ I know is the classical linear version with Achilles and the tortoise (where he can allegedly never catch up the slower animal), but I presume the one you’re referring to is an analogous demonstration.

Anyway, hope you find some useful extra contributions here in the Blank Media forum…:cool: