Interesting Observations with errors on my o/c 40125S

vbimport

#1

Ok..I was concerned about burn quality so burned a few discs and checked things out with Nero CD Speed

Burner is 40125S converted to 48125W

Media used Philips 40x cdrs..CMC smartburn rates at 48x
used acouple Fuji,,Taiyo Yuden rated at 24x smartburn say ok at 40x..

CMC disc...I have noticed few damaged sectors at the end of larger burns..650 mg+ so speed is getting close to max of 48x

running nero cd quality check I will from 0 errors up to 170 or so errors almost always 0%..once 6500 errors or 0.0001%

Scan disc..has given most discs 99+% good usually less than 1% damaged(scandisc reported 99% good sectors on the disc with 6500 errors by cd quality check)...my last block is always unreadable..I assume this is because I closed the disc(I see it with Taiyo Yuden)
I had one disc report 93% good 7% bad with couple of unreadable sectors...

Philips 40x cdr..burned a 575 mg ISO on 2 different CMC media with smartburn on at 48x(does not get to 48x of course file is too small..hit 48x near the 70 minmark)
1. disc 93% good
7% bad with a few unreadable sectors..I think there was 2...not including last sector
other 99.12% good no unreadable except last sector

Now Taiyo Yuden..Fuji 24x cdr..same iso file..575..burned one with smartburn on ..burn at max of 40
99.7+ % good ..one da,maged sector..and last unreadable

second..no smartburn with max 48x..
99% or so good...2 unreadable included last sector...2 damaged sectors

Interestingly burn speed were same with smart burn on for all 3 disc..2 CMC and 1 Taiyo Yuden....1 TY no smartburn burned 2 sec slower

It seems to me either the media is still a bit poor for 40x writing and up or the writer is not very accurate at these speeds...

I did check a TY burned at 24x on 24102b..100% good

there are more damaged(not unreadable) sectors on my 650mg + burns as speeds approach 48x..just not sure what this is going to translate too

Also the TY disc seem to better quality with less variation in my small test burning at 40x vs rated 24x than the CMC rated at 40x...I debating on returning them to Staples and complaining and trying to different brand..more money for less disc like Sony....

I knew I was going to hate this Taiwan made discs again...
I waiting for Fuji 40x TY discs...hope they do not go back to crap taiwan made though

One more important note..I did test several of these CMC disc with the file test on Nero CD Speed and CD Check and the files showed no errors...so what does the other errors really mean..bad data in month, year, 2 yrs ..etc


#2

I have a requaest for anyone with a nonO/C 48125W…can you burn some disc at 48x and report back your scandisc findings…If you have Philips 40x cdr CMC disc this would be awesome for comaprison


#3

Maybe this is interesting?

http://www.cdrlabs.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4727


#4

OC Freak…I know about this thread and have asked about this there as well…he seems to report no unreadable sector…but all the burns even at a 40x write speed are showing unreadable sector with Nero(philips 40x cdr)

Clonecd…burned JKII …last sector was fine…on CMC 40x Philips cdrs

do you have any idea whether these errors are a problem now or in the future

I also noticed you ca nread the same cdr with Liteon cdrw and ltd 163 using cd quality check…sometimes a cd will give no errors…read with a different reader it will give an error…even same reader will report different errors in different locations or no error

How reliable is Nero for error reporting


#5

thanks…I must say 24x burning gives much better quality check a few burns…100% perfect…

no matter whether I burn at 40x or 48x on this Liteon 40125S o/c to 48x…it always gives a few damaged almost always less 1%…generally 99.13 +% good …last sector is always unreadable with Nero but not WinOnCD and clonecd…very strange I assume it has to close last session or lead out or something with Nero

the Media I am sure is the problem…because give Taiyo Yuden has this problem but I am burning a 24x disc at 40x(smartburn says it will burn at 40x…need to check it at 24x speed and see what happens) …Philips 40x cdr at 48x …(smartburn again says this ok…but I think the media is a problem)

These high speed burns may lend themselves to some errors even at 40x on 40x media( I have not seen any made in Japan yet where I live…made in Taiwan are not as good IMHO)…I wish I had some 40x Taiyo Yuden rather than CMC …these are generally not good

Also saw a report that Nero and nonIntel system is slower with leadin/out…so I am guessing this is the problem…guy at cdrlabs burner1000000 pointed this out…this very disturbing…always noticed leadin/out times were longer with Nero vc clonecd and winoncd …
Nero with my 24102B never gave an unreadable sector…very strange and worrisome


#6

Well I just ordered a spindle of 40X TY branded discs. I’m not surprised that a 24X disc has a couple of errors on it when you burn it @ 48X. Also not surprised that a OC drive is producing errors period. I doubt that the 40125W and 48125W are exactly the same.

I also could care less about an extra 2-3 seconds here and there with lead-in/out. I want error free burns like my old plex used to be able to produce. Based on what I have seen, lead-in/out on my rig takes between 6-8 seconds.

I’ll post results when they show up.


#7

on my previous 24102B…my lead in/out times with Nero were never 6 sec…

I am not as convinced as you that the 40x and 48x burner are different… I looked at from standpoint of cpu…make are just underclocked…I really think the hardware is probably the same but it takes time for the firmware to be set for 48x

But on the other hand I could be very wrong…


#8

I’m talking 6 seconds as in 3 for lead in and 3 for lead out. I’m sure they have a different motor and the chipset might be tweaked a bit in the 48125W.

If it was as easy as people think and if things were so similar, LiteOn would have won the speed race quite a while back.

Also, firmware doesn’t take as long as you think.


#9

my lead in/out times with Nero have ranged from 10 sec to 25 sec…
Are lead out.in times with just a data burn, cd copy , .iso or .bin burns??

Also what version of the 4n1 are you using…are you using the via 3.14 miniport driver??

There maybe a difference in the motor have no way to confirm this but the tweaked firmware is not an issue since the 5 series chipsets can take firmware from the 48x drive…I would bet the chipsets are same in all thel ine of 5 series…

I would be somewhat surprised if the motor is that different between drives in a given series since Liteon are releasing firmware updates that allow for CAV writing on the 40125S…

I just have a hard time with believing the hardware is different in a given series because of the cost of manufacturing would change on the drives and since Liteon keeps cost down as represented in their great prices that would want only minimal changes to keep a good margin for profit…think about it this way the release the same drive but better firmware and can raise the price for awhile and increase their profit margin at same production cost

As for overclocking…this is probably smaller niche than cpu or videcard o/cing…

I have no proof of course and just speculating … it is my humble opinion…am right maybe , maybe not…could be a little or not at all

If I find out there is a significant hardware difference I will revert back to the 40125S series of firmware…

Wish there was a Liteon tech/engineer who visited the forum to shed light on this issue


#10

I’m sure they have a different motor and the chipset might be tweaked a bit in the 48125W.

Um, no… The 40126S has the new chipset. It should be in the channel already…

If it was as easy as people think and if things were so similar, LiteOn would have won the speed race quite a while back.

It’s called scale of production & avg marginal cost… Once 48x16x48 process is in place, why continue with the older manufacturing process…? Evidenced by changeover from 24102B to 24103S which is none other than the same 32123S unit. It’s called product differentiation & market segmentation… You sell more volume into the lower priced 24x market & extract more margin from the 32x market. The real issue is with media qualification & standardisation for higher speed burns. Just look at the upcomming 24x HS CDRW saga…

Also, firmware doesn’t take as long as you think.

Hmm… After base code maybe…? Ever used early spin FW…?


#11

Thanks for the lesson in Economics and Marketing, learned that in BSchool several years ago. Look @ your earlier post and think about how most people would respond. Next time be more specific so we don’t get into semantics.

Cost of manufacturing do increase, it’s the price you pay when you increase speeds in the hardware game. However, LiteOn can acheive economies of scale much easier/quicker these days thanks to the success of their OEM/ODM deals (Dell, Pac Digital, Visiontek), hence staying competitive on cost. The other factor you are forgetting about in your “model” is the commoditization of the media and drives. This isn’t a niche market any more… it’s standard equipment on a large percentage of computers sold these days.

Since they’re able to spread their costs out due to higher production volume, what makes you think that they can’t negotiate better prices in their supply chain than they were able to previously? When most companies sign a major OEM deal, first thing they do is hit their suppliers and push for lower prices. Also, given the number of established players in the industry, what makes you think that LiteOn @ this stage of the game isn’t willing to sacrifice margin for more market share? They can also offset some of their decreased margins through licensing revenues (Visiontek, TDK etc…).

Yes I have used early versions of firmware and worked for a hardware company/two developing marketing and product strategy. The code base is established, we’re talking optimizations.

By the way, I’m not talking about the new chipset (Series 6) since LiteOn is currently running Series 5… I’m talking some tweaks at a hardware level to increase precision with the faster writing speeds. Things along the line of better motors, faster pickups, some other optimizations etc… you and I really don’t know since we don’t have EE’s and don’t work for LiteOn.

Lastly 48X16X48 isn’t in the channel. Might be with a few OEM/ODMs for testing, but it sure hasn’t made it to market.


#12

I am not sure if you are pissed at me or Stevem…take it easy…As I said it was my opinion based on simple observations with other hardware like CPU and often videocards…downclock the same hardware for low and raise for high end and change more…

Of course it is possible they went to suppliers and did as you say…but I still feel the cost of manufacturer would be higher do a “whole” new drive vs simple tweaks…again if the 40x and 48x are so different whay can the 40x drives now support CAV…this too me would be a bigger issue than speed for the hardware…CAV writing seems technical to be hardware dependent than speed…again my opinion…

Listen I am well aware I could be very wrong and out in left field…

The interesting point …there is a guy over at cdrlabs…burner1000000 who has a converted 40x to 48x, a true 48x and 40x using CAV writing firmware …he is testing a ton of media…He and I have been conversing via posts…he is finding errors in the writing by both the converted 48x and true 48x to be similar not exact since each media piece can give errors in different spots…so far he is finding these drives will for the most part write to the same media at 48x with the same readablity after the burn

The High Speed burns…40x -48x appear to very media dependent

Oh well I a mjust hoping they are the same hardware or very close…if not as I said I will down clock and eventually just get a true 48 x …hopfully the 48/24/48

I find this discussion educational your points are very valid and correct…


#13

Not pissed @ all and aware of the thread. Burner did mention that he thinks some of the errors are due to Nero… not the drive. His acceptable error rate is under 5% and it has be able to be read to pass, otherwise it gets a “no”. I would like to see burners error rates for each media. That would tell us a great deal more than Yes and No.

I understand your analogy regarding binning and I think it makes sense to a certain degree. There are hardware tweaks and optimizations that do go on with video cards. Typically faster ones are more expensive to make unless they acheive a certain volume or do something to their manufacturing process… like shifting to .13m from .15m. You get more chips per platter. The main difference though is that CDR components are much less expensive and sophisticated.

A ciouple of people have reported that they had zero errors with TY 40X media and a 48X drive. I’ve ordered some and will give it a try.

I do think that LiteOn jumped the gun… notice there aren’t any other drives out there that are 48X? I’ll bet the other companies noticed the high error rates and decided to hold off either for the hardware to catch up orthe media to be able to handle the speed. Can’t see plex, teac or yamaha releasing a drive that wrote errors consistently. The other thing I find curious, Yamaha’s new drive the F1… 44X24X44. 44? Notice it’s in between 48 and 40? Wonder if that’s for media compatibility.

I’m probably going to return my LiteOn if I get errors with high quality media. Wait for the Yamaha or buy a Teac.


#14

I think Nero has something to do with this…to a degree…
CD Check which checks file status…even with a disc with 7% errors …was OK

I am wondering whether Nero CD Speed may need updating…

I found TAO with my drive will always make the last sector unreadable…DAO this does not happen

Check this out

I decided to burn a few more discs…

I had .bin/cue of 470 and 290 mg …both burned on Philips 40x cdrs at 48x with smartburn on…
no errors with CD Speed

then went backed and 2 burned .bin/cue …660mg and 650 mg…then .iso of 575 mg or so…all DAO…no more TAO

the 660 mg .bin and the 575 .iso file were burned at 48x with smartburn …same media…Philips 40x cdr…
now I get error generally 2 in fist 5% and few at the end…so error rate is .5% to 1.2%

now I burn the 650 mg .bin at 40x …with smartburn on…I manually lowered the speed in the screen for writing the .bin file
again same error pattern…few in first 5% and then a few at the end

no unreadable sectors

why would the smaller file size give no errors at the beginning…I can understand the end …too fast for media

I am at a loss to know what this means…

can somebody with a nonconverted 40x.ie not o/ced and never was…burn a disc at 40x and tell me if they get any errors …if possible with a big and small file…

This is so weird!!


#15

hello nealh I have a 'standard '40125w, it has never been altered and my burner gives roughly the same results as yours apart from I get the red block at the end of EVERY disc…even ones that are 0% errors. In multisession burns I add more files and the red sector disappears. The size of the burn has resulted in the errors being in different places…the 700MB burns have errors fairly close to the begining (we are talking maybe 100 or so errors in cd quality check which is still 0.00%)…HOWEVER…all these tests are with my ltd163d dvd drive…the 40x burner gives totally different results usually giving better (smaller) error rates. It seems no two scans are the same with errors in different places, so it seems to me that while cd speed is useful it may not be 100% accurate because the hardware we use with it varies so much making the results vary also.
I dont know about you but I am one of these people who want perfection…and to be honest I think these programs may be causing a slight paranoid reaction…if the discs play perfectly in both your drives and the errors show up in different places after scanning a few times using the same disc then no conclusive evidence is there that your drive is producing less than perfect burn’s. Nealh I have a small program that I downloaded called cdcheck (freeware) and it’s better in my opinion than cd speed for our disc checks…if you havent got it and you would like it let me know and I will sort out e-mailing it to you (its only 900kb)…also on a last note the 40x media you can buy now is still very new and could well be the major factor…time will tell


#16

I am glad to hear this is occurring with an unaltered 40x drive…I have found very similar results regarding the fact that 2 or more scans give different results, using a different reader gives different results…

that last sector error I think is due to TAO writing on the drive …esp with Nero…try DAO writing and I think it will go away…

large burns give early errors …very weird wonder why the size of the burn affect errors…presumably the burner starts at the same speeds so early writing should be the same…I wonder if this is a problem with Nero CD Speed and high speed burns over large disc and maybe it is reporting false errors…

TAO writing gave me trouble once before on my Litoen 24102B…could not write in TAO with 1 particular .bin/cue file…switched to DAO and everything was OK…

Nero’s TAO writing and Liteon seems to be an issue…I can burn TAO with WinOnCD 5 fine

I just prefer DAO …just gotta remember to do it

CD Check is a great program…until now I never even used Nero CD Speed to check a disc…only CD Check

Funny thing is 24x burns on my 24102B never have any errors with Nero CD Speed I have checked several…I just wonder in Nero CD Speed is the problem…

Thanks for your reply…good to know it is not an o/cing issue

Hard to blame the writer as the place of errors varies though similar places for me…large burn at 40x +…early errors usually 1-2 in first 5%…then late …or at least last half of disc…from none…to .5% or so


#17

I think it’s a combination of software and hardware. Plex, Teac and Yamaha are well known for the quality and compatibility of their drives. Most folks that burn with those drives (even with lower quality media) get a 0% error rate. I think that says something about LiteOn hardware.

The CDRW drive is not as good of a reader as the 163D… hence fewer errors. This has been documented on a few sites.

That new Yamaha is looking pretty sweet… I can live without a burner for 2-3 weeks. My RMA from Newegg has been approved… just need that other burner to get to market.


#18

I disagree…the Plex is top notch…Teac …no experience…Yahama is not so great hear alot of problems…

I have used Plex 2410…nice writer but very picky on which media it would burn 24x…burns were of no higher quality than Liteon…

I thin kthe issue is the speed of the burn…sorry to see you dump the 48x cdrw…I think you will pay a premium for the Yahama with no better quality…

CDRW are usually better readers in many ways than dvd/cdrom…For example they are often able to read bad “burns” better…the ability to read protections have been in some cases unparallelled…

I also feel that Nero CD Speed may be a part of the problem…not sure it is 100% compatable for the higher speed burns and with the new Liteons…

I also feel the media will is an issue and believe once the the top factories but out 40-48x media we will see a different scenario…right now only the crap Taiwan stuff is out…


#19

Well the 48125W still has a shot. Probably send the drive back early next week… waiting on TY brand 40X media. We shall see.

If the F1 doesn’t do well… the 48X16X48 will be out around then or a week or two later. Maybe Series 6 will be less picky about media that Series 5. If not, I’m sure there will be a firmware update to address media compatibility and it will drop 10-20 bucks in price. End up saving $$ in the long run.

I’m not a big fan of “beta” hardware… given the different kind of media I’ve tried and efforts I’ve gone to… this drive just about fits the description.