How's that possible with quality of Premium?!

vbimport

#1

When i recieve my brand new Plextor Premium i start with quality test for Audio Cd’s. I make this tests with high quality brands of CD’s some of it specialy for Audio- TYuden, TDK or similar… strongly 4x speed
I compare Plextor Premium to Yamaha CRWF1, and just for a change i compare and my DVD-Writer for CD-rec - Pioneer DVR 107D
I made test-discs with the same Audio Material and on the same brand CD’s.
On the C1-C2, Beta-Jitter tests from Premium he says that CDs recorded from Premium are better, with small jitter, flat beta, and small C1-errors
but I think that the winner is Yamaha CRWF1… Premium show more jitter and Beta from yamaha go a little up in the end of record, but when You listen CD’s from Yamaha Audio Master Quality Recording and even in Standart Yamaha Audio recording the Quality is dramatical different from Premium… Yamaha has so clear and air between musical instruments, and Plextor has something like blurred middle and a little boomy in the basses :frowning:
The big suprise from Plextor for me is that when i use GigaRec with 0.8 or 0.7 0.6 settings or with combination in VariRec offset 0, +1 or -1 the result was so bad and in all cases - negative :frowning:
Plextor made his best records with standart 4x burning speed with only PowerRec function - on, and even then Premium dont can get to Yamaha 4x or 8x recording quality… uh, what is that…
Just for remark - copies of CD’s from Pioneer DVR107D are really sucks - more “boomy”, specialy in the beginning of CD’s
p.s. someone hear about most quality writer for audio cd copies?
Thank You
Best Reggards!


#2

Got a premium and only use TY (real) media - both the Premium and current TY leave alot to be desired. It seems DVD is the thing of today - quality for plextor cd recorders and TY media has dropped. Of the TY CDR media, the last batches have 1 or 2 out of every 5 bad in some way, mostly slowing to a crawl with yellow sectors approx %85 in - the premium has not burnt that much being fairly new - and it works fine with previously burnt media in quality tests, but stumbles or has yellow/red blocks on the new TY media - not all, but a large quantity. My trusty 2410 and older TY was much better quality. Testing burnt media (good and bad) in other drives on my PC or at work show the same thing - so I assume the TY media (bought from SVP some time ago) is crap.


#3

I wonder how writing quality should affect frequency components in your music. This would need an FFT, adjusting parameters and then iFFT.
Either your CD-Player can read the CDs fine, then you are hearing the exact same signal, or, if your player cannot read your CD and has to interpolate, you might hear some drops or glitches. But as you are telling, the Plex burnings are error-wise as good as the Yamaha burns.
I hope you are using silver-enhanced oxygen-free loudspeaker cabling?

edit: typos


#4

ATIP Code with most tested media from me is:
-TDK CD-RXG Audio
ATIP: 97m 15s 00f
Disc Manufacturer: TDK Corp.
Reflective layer: Dye (Long strategy; e.g. Cyanine, Azo etc.)
Manufacturer code: 97 15 00 - TDK Corporation (Type: 0)
Disc subtype: Medium Type A, high Beta category (A+)
Target writing power: 4
-VERBATIM - VYNIL
ATIP: 97m 15s 21f
Disc Manufacturer: Mitsubishi Chemicals Corp.
Reflective layer: Dye (Long strategy; e.g. Cyanine, Azo etc.)
nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849)
Manufacturer code: 97 15 21 - Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation (Type: 1)
Disc subtype: Medium Type A, high Beta category (A+)
Target writing power: 4
and
-MAXELL XL-II 80 Music
ATIP: 97m 15s 17f
Disc Manufacturer: Ritek Co.
Reflective layer: Dye (Short strategy; e.g. Phthalocyanine)
nominal Capacity: 702.83MB (79m 59s 74f / LBA: 359849)
Manufacturer code: 97 15 17 - Ritek Co. (Type: 7)
Disc subtype: Medium Type B, low Beta category (B-)
Target writing power: 4

I don’t use silver-enhanced oxygen-free loudspeaker cables, but
is this matter because of use the same audio equipment for sound listening…
hm, and i not say that exactly affected is frequency components in music, but mostly “air” between musical instruments… the boomy sound is a little in the Plextor than Pioneer, but Premium quality is a miles before Yamaha’s …

Just for information: My CD player is fine… 10 years Sony with completely exchanged optic laser device from me and with replaced opamps
I listen on equipment from my site i.e: DoZ Class A Amplifier with Quarter-Wave speaker boxes again made from me…

Best Reggards

p.s. the most importand with this my post is not quality of media, but quality of burning of Yamaha crwf1 VS. Plextor Premium with the same quality media


#5

But no matter how you define “the air between musical instruments”, it must be some change in the music signal.
How could this happen? Let’s have a look:

You are burning the exact same digital data with two different burners. All discs have some errors on it (even that disc from the Yamaha) but on a good disc they can easily be corrected by the CIRC circuitry of your player. If it can’t be corrected you will have a damaged block, which will result not in subtle changes in the airness of instruments but in glitches and drops.

Let’s now assume the disks have not too much C1/C2 and no CU errors and as your player is a quality player let’s further assume that he has elaborate CIRC correction abilities so that the errors can be corrected. Then you will get the same digital data back from both discs. And because your player is deterministic, he will transform the same digital data always into the same analogous signal (within some error margin due to thermal noise etc.).

Do you understand what I want to say? It’s like hearing differences between two different Toslink cables (or digital coax) cabling. You either transmit the bits absolutely correct or you don’t. In the first case you won’t hear any difference (except psychoacoustical effects of something that you want to sound better) in the second case you will most likely notice much more than a loss in “airness of instruments”.

Did you perform double-blind tests? Were you able to distinguish the two discs then?


#6

I was just about to state something like that …


#7

hm,
i burned any TDK with ATIP from above with Yamaha and Plextor. Scaned for C1-C2 and the resulting copies has just a little c1 errors only in the two disks. The Audio copies are good, but when i listen on the same equipmen including blind test i can hear difference (and i’m not the only one who can)
What i mean “air between instruments” is on Yamaha copies i can feel expandeness of musical picture but on premium - less.
… weaker, i’m agree with you that how much CD-player’s is able to reproduce copies, but why this happening …
My Yamaha CRW-F1 is over two years old, and Plextor Premium USB is a brand new… it is not logical… And do not forget that sound of Premium go a little “boomy” in the bass freq.


#8

I suggest you to follow this procedure to be 100% sure …

Extract both discs or just the tracks where the differences seem to be most obvious with EAC in Secure Mode, Cache flushing on, C2 off … after extraction (take a look at the logfiles to ensure no errors have occured) you can use EAC’s wav compare function to see whether there are binary differences … if there are not, the only possible explanation is that your CD player is somewhat flawed and doesn’t handle the Premium’s CD (which is in-spec) correctly …

Yamaha’s Audio Master Quality mode does sometimes indeed produce discs with lower pit/land jitter but that kind of jitter becomes a problem only when bits are shifted that badly so accurate reading is no longer possible due to CIRC failures. Additionally, you should remember that your player’s DAC will re-synch the data stream to it’s internal clock anyway …

And, sorry to say, but I doubt you did carry out a proper double blind listening test (meaning: without knowing which disc is actually playing) …


#9

And do not forget that sound of Premium go a little “boomy” in the bass freq.

This would mean frequency processing. But processing sound material needs processing power which is applied nowhere between just ripping, burning and playing. This is simply impossible except your CD-Player is reading the discs incorrectly (what JeanLuc already said).

And I also doubt you did a proper double-blind test. (Someone else putting the two CDs in at random order [PPYPYYYPYPP] for example, writing the (real) order down while you are listening and are writing down the order you think you hear, perhaps [PYYPYYPPPYP].)


#10

Thx for your contribution here. That is a courageous step as the community isn’t very supportive and rather suspcicious about these things. You might wanna read this discussion I got myself into: http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?p=893264 . :cool: :bigsmile:

As far as I understand the burning quality stuff it is nescessary to test a disc in the burner it was burnt in. So you need to test the disc burnned in the Plextor in the Plextor. And you need to test the Yamaha disc in the Yamaha burner.

Did you test the discs this way? If not, could you test the discs like this and put the results here. Another question that comes to my mind is next one. When you take the discs to an audio friend would the same things be heard. It would be wonderful if he had a more expensive CD player.

Suppose you don’t have a friend with a better CD player then I think the moderators here should lend you their Mark Levinson or Linn CD 12 player and their FFT machine for some real testing… :eek: :bigsmile: :iagree: :cool:

I am an audiophile with tech interest so I am at your side here. I modify my CD player and I am very interested in the “borderline area” between perceptions and the tech aspects of what’s perceived.


#11

EricJH, you quote a thread where you get even more exact reasoning from persons that more advanced than I am and you still believe in hearing a difference? Exact reproduction - isn’t that what digital sound is all about? Reading the CD correctly or not. There is nothing in between. Not as long as bits on a CD represent 0 and 1 and not 0,3 and 0,7 :bigsmile:
You claim to be a technical person, so read technical documents about the decoding process and answer for yourself how the modifications of the sound image slip in.
weaker