How about a class-action lawsuit

We better think about it if the promised-to-be-released FW at the end of August does not fix our problems…

I remember that there was a class action suit filed against Toshiba in 1999 because of defective floppy disk in their laptop products. Toshiba paid around $23 million to the US (end users) and another $10 mill to the government for using their products… At that time I got (I think) $200, although I never use the floopy. :bigsmile:

Now searching for lawyers…

Are you talking about a new firmware for the Premium drive?

I think your going over the top with a lawsuit dude :rolleyes:

They deserve that, especially with the ignorance of the tech support in the US and the constant denial of the problems. Their standard answer is that they never heard about the problem. When I try to point them to some of the forums and the fact that I am not the only one complaining about the issues the reply is that they read the forums but I am the first one in the US who is experiencing it. Are we all delusional??? I have replaced three drives and none of them works properly (PX712-A).

I’m talking about 712 drives, actually.

I’ve spent money buying medias more than the drive itself, and it’s getting really annoying :a :a

Zevia,

You’ve made a lot of posts about this drive and the problems you are having with “three of them.” I’ve not experienced any of those problems when using quality media, quality software, and with the proper system configuration. I suspect this model 712A is not compatible with your system, the way you are using it, your software, or the way you have it hooked up to your system.

Something is obviously wrong. Before you go absolutely NUTS over this, perhaps you should scrap or return your Plextor 712A and go get an NEC 3100 or Pioneer 108? Life is too short for all this over a DISK DRIVE.

Man, I’m not trying to belittle your problems, but you’ve put up with quite enough already. You are now only poisoning yourself over this. I say: Stay sane, RETURN it and be forever DONE with PLEXTOR!

I have the 708A and 712A and I love them both, I have been wanting to buy both again and have 2 of each in a machine. After reading some of these post I am wondering if I was lucky and they were very unlucky in what they recieved. I am about to come to the same conculsion that BigRed1 has come to,

I suspect this model 712A is not compatible with your system, the way you are using it, your software, or the way you have it hooked up to your system.

and I also agree with

Man, I’m not trying to belittle your problems, but you’ve put up with quite enough already. You are now only poisoning yourself over this.

and the biggest point of all is

Stay sane, RETURN it and be forever DONE with PLEXTOR!

The reason I really agree with BigRed1 is because of the little problem I had with Plextor, it had something to do with my #1 rig and the way it was set up compared to how my 2nd Rig was set. While using CloneDVD, I just decided to switch Drives in diffrent machine’s and now everything is running fine, no real problems

Guys thanks for the warm thoughts.

I bought my 712A a month ago from newegg (which now they don’t accept RMA refund, only replacement with the same make/model). Right out of the box, installation and first burn went “succesful”, meaning my standalone can playback fine. The media was Memorex (RICOHJPN-R01-02) 4x DVD+R @8x. Second burn, my player can’t read. That’s how I know this forum and met with wonderful folks here. That’s when I know what is PI/PO test and how to read it. Alhtough it turned out that the second failed media was because a bad ISO file, but a check on the first “succesful” media shows PIe>600. Imagine thousands or millions other owners who never visit this forum, who never knew what is PI/PO, who let their burning software to the default speed MAX and never notice that their important backups will not last long or not compatible in other drives/players.

It was just like the faulty floopy drive in those Toshiba laptop I mentioned earlier. I didn’t know that it was defective (but I did test and the floopy written cannot be read with other floopy drive).

Well guys, obviously there will be pro and contra. But it’s a good warning for Plextor if they read this. Their denying the facts is just a bad way in handling customers (although it’s probably good for their business). I too called Plextor in the first week of owning my drive and they said: “this is the first time I hear the problem but will check cdfreaks.”

Note: for a month I tried every option available: self test, change IDE cable, switch IDE channel, install in other comp, use different softwares (DVDShrink 3.2.0.15, DVDDecrypter 3.2.3.0, Nero 6.3.1.17, Roxio 6.2.0.110) and different media (RICOH, YUDEN). I came to a conclusion that: a) my drive is defective, b) wife’s and my comp need to be tweak but don’t know what else, c) I need to test (and buy :a) more media/brand to find the one that most compatible with my drive. My old HP 200i (2.4x) burns all media with PIerror < 20.

Have you sent it back to the factory for warrantee service? They should fix it if it’s defective, and test it before they send it back to you. If they can’t fix it, they should refund your money.

I’m just saying, not all of these are bad like you let on they are. Not to boast, but mine, and a few others here on this forum, work great. We just have to get a good one to you, or switch brands altogether.

Did you pay for it with Visa or Mastercard? You have options there too you know! If you’ve made every attempt to work with newegg.com and Plextor, and you still don’t have satisfaction, demand a refund from newegg.com, in writing, if they refuse, take it up with your credit card customer service to get a full refund. Then go buy another brand along with a tall cold beer.

Actually I only tried “two of them”, you might be talking about CVS or markobenin :D.

Have you sent it back to the factory for warrantee service? They should fix it if it’s defective, and test it before they send it back to you. If they can’t fix it, they should refund your money.

I never know that Plextor (or other mfg) can refund if we didnot bought from them directly. Yes I paid with Visa so that’s another option if all exhausted.

@BigRed1

All these problems we’re experiencing (you’re lucky enough to have a good drive) have a perfectly good reason as I have explained here:

http://forum.cdfreaks.com/showpost.php?p=646589&postcount=226

It doesn’t have anything to do with bad quality media, as some people will love to believe against all odds (die hard Plex fans who were lucky enough to get a good drive this time).

Just an example: My first bad drive wrote TDK 4x DVD+R (RICOH dye) at 8x with hundreds of PO (uncorrectable) errors in the first 0.5Gb, and then Plextools just stoped reporting bad media. The second drive Plextor sent me as a replacement wrote this media without any problems, but still not as good as other drives … Finally the third drive (which Plextor hand picked for me) writes them with PIPO < 20 as it should. I’ve had a similar story with FUJIFILM03 dye (Datawrite 8x DVD-R) and RITEK R03 REv02 (Infinity 8x DVD+R).
It took Plextor one week to hand pick a good unit for me, so doing that for many customers is clearly not feasible, that’s why they told me to stop advising people to RMA their drives. RMA-ing your drive is not a guarantee that the drive you’ll receive will be a good one, unless they’ll hand pick it for you which doesn’t seems to be an easy task.

It also doesn’t have anything to do with a system incompatibility as few people alredy mentioned that they have tried this unit on other systems as well and it still doesn’t work.

Plextor told me that currently there is no solution to this problem other than waiting for the FW FIX which they intend to release by the end of the month. Hopefully this magic FW upgrade will fix the problem and all these drives will finally work as advertised … if not … we’ll I’ll deal with that in my next post …

:cop: I fully agree that I and few other people here and in other forums have put up with a lot. God knows how many days and nights I wasted in the past two months testing and trying anything in order to finally get this damn unit to work. If you look through this forum you’ll see that many other people did the same. This is the time factor. Time is money.

:cop: What about the stress and anger caused to us by all these problems??? This is the “sanity” factor.

:cop: Like Zevia and others, I have bought already discs in excess of the purchase price of the drive. Half of this media I still cannot properly use, some of it doesn’t even work at its certified speed, and some of it doesn’t work at all. All this media is above average in terms of quality and price, since I’ve bought good quality media, in the hope of convincing the damn drives to work. Besides stacks of (expensive) media which I still cannot use - and we are at FW1.04 already!!! - I also have the pleasure of looking at my nice stack of COASTERS. This is the financial side. I have in fact lost quite a bit of money due to all these drives!!!

:cop: Now let’s look a bit around. The current price for this drive is around £70-80 it seems. You can pick up the newly released Pioneer 108 or NEC 3500 for around £65. This are brand new models, both boosting 16x writing speeds and 4x DL, yet they are still cheaper than the PX712! So what is our (the unfortunate ones) current story? We have bought a drive two months ago at £120, and it never worked as advertised. Since then, we had FW1.02, 1.03 and 1.04 and they still don’t work as they should, or worse, for some people they don’t work at all. So two months after, they still don’t work, and even worse, now they are OBSOLETE too. Basically, at a time when other companies already have on the market a new generation of their drives, our King of Quality drives still don’t work yet!!! Moreover, we’ll have to wait for a further 1/2 month for a firmware FIX, which may or may not work as well as it should!!! Anyhow, by the time this unit will finally work, it will be worse than obsolete!!! I don’t know about you, but in my book this is completely outrageous. Pure rip-off. Financial side again???

:cop: What about the loss of productivity during these two months??? Allegedly we bought all these units to do something useful with them!!!??

:cop: What about those poor people in the USA who don’t benefit from a collect and return warranty, and have to pay in order to have their unit delivered to Plextor and then when they receive a new unit, this turns out to be bad as well???

Is Plextor deserving to get a class action law suit??? Oooo YES !!!

What are they doing meanwhile??? Instead of stopping the shipment of this unit until they’ll fix it, they are continuing to sell new units quite happily to poor unsuspecting users, blinded by their King of Quality marketing!!!
Have they publicly acknowledged in any way that all these new users might buy a bad drive??? NO, they haven’t. Have they at least issued a warning that some units might not work as advertised??? Nope!!!
Some of these new users are likely to never scan their drives for errors, trusting Plextor and NERO or whatever program they use, which “successfully” burned their favourite data disc or backup at 8x. In fact all these people are very likely to loose their data, which might be invaluable to them???

Isn’t it Plextor liable for that, since they knew about the problem, but they willingly haven’t warned the users???

This practice, together with what few people report about the USA branch of Plextor’s tech support regarding their standard: “I don’t know anything, you’re the first customer with this problem” answer is not only vicious, but illegal. This is false advertising, which is sanctioned by any trading standards in any civilised country.

:cop: Because of all these reasons described above, I submit to you that for some of us it is “just” a bit too late to simply return the drive and get our money back, even if this would be quite straightforward. We have incurred a lot of pain, lost a lot of time, wasted a lot of money and this is just too much!!! I’m afraid that we’ve passed the point of no return! Now, they should pay for it one way or another. We owe this to ourselves and to the people who went through this process, and to those people who will go through this process now, as unsuspecting new buyers. We should have a bit of self respect and do the right thing. By their way of handling the problem, they fully deserve to be penalised through a nice law suit. A class action law suit is not nearly as complex as one might think, although is clearly not trivial.

If we don’t do it, we are in fact sending Plextor a signal that we are willing to swallow anything they throw at us, and that they can still put up this kind of stunt in the future. This is surely not right.

:cop: The least Plextor should do if they still have some brain left and want to keep their customers and their good name, is to act pretty damn quick to properly rectify this blunder, and to make sure that we don’t have to put up with a obsolete drive by the time they finally get it to work!!! They should at least offer us a free upgrade to a WORKING PX716, throw in some free media and send a humble letter of apology to all of us, who have been subjected to this “special” King of Quality treatment!!!

In order to accomplish a class action law suit, you will have to establish a lot of points to be successful. This is painfully costly in time, money, and aggravation.

I’m not trying to belittle your problems. I’ve been there too, and to much greater extremes. I’m glad it’s not me this time around.

This is a disk drive (and a controversial type of drive at that!) - not an automobile, baby carriage, or major medical device. You’re energy isn’t worth wasting on such an uncommon item. You’re not likely to get much of a sympathetic ear in the court system on this one.

Personally, I’d cut my losses at “3 units,” your time already spent, and some coasters, and demand my purchase price back immediately. If the reseller refused to refund, I’d file a claim with the credit card company.

I wouldn’t take that bet that a magic firmware upgrade at the end of the month is going to fix a hardware tolerance issue.

Once refunded, I’d buy another brand or model which shows more likelihood of success.

Let Plextor get these negative calls from their resellers. That will be the most effective way to let them know they need to get it right the first time. Meanwhile, make yourself financially whole again ASAP so you may promptly pursue another make or model drive.

Yes, this is a new trend mainly introduced by MS a few years ago - abusing people as their Final-Beta tester. The industry throws a peace of hardware/software at you and a semi developed firmware/ driver. Then they only have to wait for the echo in the product specific forums. Well, this is the best thing since invention of sliced bread, don’t u all think? - The industry saves heaps of development and testing money. Fair? - Thinking of steadily declining retail costs I think it is justified to a certain de-gree. However, in der CD burner branch I find they are overdoing it a bit. The hardware system em-ployed appears somewhat medieval to me since the industry could implement intelligent analysis into the burners to make the device dynamically adjust to the media inserted automagically. I think just reading(setting) a write strategy thing based on the media’s type is dull since it assumes the media always is of same quality - this is a foolish idea and strategy! A burner should be able to adjust to real conditions of the CD inserted. :smiley:

my thoughts…

Nice thought :slight_smile:

Actually I do not think it’s that clever to compare software and hardware. Many of us always blame it on the software when there are so many INCOMPATIBLE hardware, I’d like to see how could sw companies to support them… Let’s take a look at the optical storage… You can buy 16x writers, but there is no 16x writable disk at all. How could any sw support a nonexisting media ?! I rather blame the hw manufacturers that they want MORE money and sell unreliable, untested and I even dare to say FAKE products with big numbers on the boxes just to sell their craps. And when they do not work, everyone blames it on the software companies, mainly on MS, when they can do nothing about it. I have read some nice lines about “quality software” which affects burning quality… You must be kidding, there is a very little affect any software can do when the drive hw and its internal sw firmware is limited. No matter what sw you use, todays drives use a standard command set, so writting does not deppend on the burning sw itself, it just sends out some commands + data to the drive, and the writing process is the drive’s bussines. If that fails, or the writting quality is LOW then that is the drive’s fault, and has almost nothing to do with the burning software. Of course in that case when the burner is supported by the sw.

I also do not belive in the magic firmware fix at the end of this month, but the main question is that what will happen then ? (I mean if that fw won’t fix the problem…) I’ve yet to see a disk type that could be written at 8x no, no I do not dream about 12x in my Plextor, especially a disk that could be written with GOOD quality, but for 200 euro this writting quality is rather BAD than acceptable. 4x writers can be bought for 40 euro and then why should I pay 4 times more if I cannot burn faster than 4x ? I am sure if anyone were to offer a refund I’d be the 1st to apply for it, and leave Plextor alone. But I doubt Plextor would offer anything, no matter how many bad drives they sell…

regards, Stephen

I am just wondering about one fact … a class-action lawsuit will definitely need some proof (in form of unreadable or out-of-spec DVD discs, produced with the PX712A) … now I wonder how many of these discs have … erm … some illegal content on them.

Wouldn’t be wise to use these as proof during a lawsuit if you ask me …

Nevertheless … I experience the same problems with my 712A although It did not produce any coasters yet … just because I think overspeeding 4x media to 6x is enough and that is where the 712A still behaves perfectly.

The problems occur with the switch from CAV to 8x CLV … just overlay a plextools write speed simulation with an appropriate plextools PI-Sum 8 scan and you know what I mean …

IMO, Plextor’s problem is not a question of firmware tweaking - since a given firmware can never make up for hardware flaws (I still think about my LiteOn 411S whose official firmware developments actually decreased writing quality).

Maybe Plextor will change the write descriptors so you won’t be able to burn at 8/12x anymore … :Z

That’s when I call Mastercard :stuck_out_tongue:

I would have said the same considering the probs I have had, but then I did these burns:

TYG02 -R 8x @ 8x

YUNDEN000 T02 +R 8x @ 12x

This does suggest that media is a big problem. My drive was sent back to me saying it was working fine and the media was the issue. If I can get these media at a decent price i’ll stay happy for now.

lmao2k: the main problem for me is that no matter what 8x media I try, may it be Ritek, TY, Ricoh or anything else, all have very high PI rates when they are written at any speed higher than 4x, while writing at 4x ANYTHING will result in solid and acceptable PI/PO rates. So that is why I said I’ve yet to see a WORKING 8x disk, as for me there has been none up till now.

regards, Stephen