HIFI Quality Burns - Which Program?

Hi, just joined the forum tonight - its cool!

Usually use EAC to rip, nero to burn audio.
I have noticed a difference in audio quality with differnt programs. Not sure if one is better…just “different”.

Also I usually just use Memorex 24x media - much cheepness

Any other hifi snobs out there have any recommendations as to the best “Hifi” ripping/burning program

Oh, is there any milage in using audio CDRs over DATA for burnng audio.

sorry for so many questions, its my first post!

Cheers.

Originally posted by Gazjam
[B]Hi, just joined the forum tonight - its cool!

Usually use EAC to rip, nero to burn audio.
I have noticed a difference in audio quality with differnt programs. Not sure if one is better…just “different”.

Also I usually just use Memorex 24x media - much cheepness

Any other hifi snobs out there have any recommendations as to the best “Hifi” ripping/burning program

Oh, is there any milage in using audio CDRs over DATA for burnng audio.

sorry for so many questions, its my first post!

Cheers. [/B]

OK, I would say you are on the right track using EAC for ripping, most audiophiles swear by it.

As far as the media, you need to use the media with the highest reflectivity you can find, that will have the fewest jitter errors, therefore keeping more true quality. I reccomend Princo (the Jensen 100 packs at circuit city are princo)

Burning program shouldn’t have much if any effect. It’s all just data to the program. I don’t think the quality is any better in any program, but I prefer Nero Burning Rom, just because of the great options but still relatively simple interface. Any other questions, just post, everyone on the forum will gladly help you.

almost forgot: no diff between audio and data CD-R. The only reason that audio CD-R costs more is that the manufacturers have to pay royalties to the record companies.

As compu44 said, the burning program should make no difference in quality of sound (it would be a huge bug).
Only when decoding MP3 there are differences some times.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Nero still doesn’t decode well:

The differences in sound should lie in the media compatibility.

As I always say, Feurio! is the best audio burning program. Try it but there shouldn’t be any difference with Nero in sound quality.

Originally posted by minix
[B]As compu44 said, the burning program should make no difference in quality of sound (it would be a huge bug).
Only when decoding MP3 there are differences some times.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Nero still doesn’t decode well:
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~djmrob/mp3decoders/decoders_nero.html

The differences in sound should lie in the media compatibility.

As I always say, Feurio! is the best audio burning program. Try it but there shouldn’t be any difference with Nero in sound quality. [/B]

Well, a true audiophile won’t be using MP3 anyway, so that shouldn’t be much of a concern. And the bit in the article about nero clipping the end of files is total BS.
Also the piece about the limitation at 21kHz doesn’t matter because even the best human hearing can only hear up to 18 or so (the people that say 20kHz are sadly mistaken.). I stand firmly by nero, but if you are paranoid, you could decode mp3 to wave using CDex (www.cdex.n3.net) which scored perfect in the link you posted (and is a brilliant program) and then burn the wave files with nero. Nero doesn’t do any encoding or decoding on wave files, so therefore the quality will be the same.

I stand firmly by nero. :wink:

part of the reason that I think much more highly of nero could be that the version they reviewed is much older than the ones that I am accustomed to using. It may well have had problems then…

And the bit in the article about nero clipping the end of files is total BS.

Well, I don’t know about MP3s. The big problem is that Nero cuts even WAV files.
It had a bug from version 5542 to 5572. The last sector of WAV files was always missing.
With recent versions the only “bug” or “feature” is that it cuts the last sector if the file is not a multiple of a CD-DA sector (588 samples).
With Feurio you never lose music.

About MP3 I compared waves decoded with Winamp 2.666, Fraunhoffer 1.9 and Feurio and they were almost the same. MP3s decoded with Nero were different and with CDEx maybe they had problems with length (I’m not sure). Winamp and Fraunhoffer are known to be be ISO compliant decoders, so I can trust Feurio but not Nero.

CakeWalks Pyro 2003, has alot of control for ripping and decoding

:slight_smile: I’ll stick with EAC and look into teh murky depths of the advanced setings in Nero.

Oh, and I’ll buy better media

:smiley: wavelab is a professional music mastering software program that burns the best audio cdr’s. while this may seem like there is no reason for it, try it & then post a reply.

Originally posted by minix
[B]

Well, I don’t know about MP3s. The big problem is that Nero cuts even WAV files.
It had a bug from version 5542 to 5572. The last sector of WAV files was always missing.
With recent versions the only “bug” or “feature” is that it cuts the last sector if the file is not a multiple of a CD-DA sector (588 samples).
With Feurio you never lose music.

About MP3 I compared waves decoded with Winamp 2.666, Fraunhoffer 1.9 and Feurio and they were almost the same. MP3s decoded with Nero were different and with CDEx maybe they had problems with length (I’m not sure). Winamp and Fraunhoffer are known to be be ISO compliant decoders, so I can trust Feurio but not Nero. [/B]

actual milage vaires, i guess. I know for fact that I haven’t ever had trouble with nero clipping my files.

I tried myself with Nero 5.5.6.4 extracting the tracks with Nero and putting them in a project.
The last sector of the songs was missing.

If you make CD to CD copy there’s no problem.
It’s also possible that you don’t hear the problem because a sector is less than 2 hundreds of a second, and usually the end of the track is silence.

It seems that it’s from version 5.0.0.0 that this happens:

I can’t believe people could be burning all that time with Nero and not detect that stupid bug.

You can try with Nero 5564 and check that it’s true.

And if in that page they say that Nero 5013 clips the end of MP3s always I’m sure it’s true… Maybe not other versions.

And of course the “feature” of clipping the end of the wave if it’s not a multiple of 588 sample is present in new versions.

There was a known bug (acknowledged by ahead at the time) with burning audio with version 5.5.6.4. However, the current version is 5.5.9.9 and that bug was fixed long ago.

The above is not to say however that you shouldn’t try one of the specialist alternatives to nero for burning audio (exact audio copy, feurio, etc) but it isn’t, strictly speaking, necessary (just update to the latest version if you’ve got 5.5.6.4).

There was a known bug (acknowledged by ahead at the time) with burning audio with version 5.5.6.4

Have you tried the rest of the versions?

Ahead didn’t solved the problem until 5.5.7.2 at least.

I have just done my tests now with Nero 5.5.2.4. The result: last sector missing in the tracks.
I’m going to try a 5.0.xx now but I guess I know the outcome.

So, if you’ve been using Nero to burn WAVE compilations (extracted with EAC for example) you have one sector less per track than the original.

Originally posted by minix

I’m going to try a 5.0.xx now but I guess I know the outcome.

Why not try the latest? (5.5.9.9)

Anyway, you’re a confirmed feurio fan, aren’t you? :wink:

Why not try the latest? (5.5.9.9)

Well, it was enough for me to see that it was solved in version 5580… probably 5580 is the best version and I don’t want to play with Nero Express (which of course will bring new bugs).
But as I said they still clip the last sector if the WAV was edited…

It seems that Nero 5.0.x.x refuses to run in my WinXP so I won’t try it, but in Win98 I think Nero 5.0.1.8 burned correctly the WAVs.
So, I think that the ridiculous bug was in versions 5.5.0.0 to 5.5.7.2.

I just can’t believe the number of people spending time with EAC offsets just to burn their WAVs with Nero.

Anyway, you’re a confirmed feurio fan, aren’t you?

Of course :bow: :cool:

And not because I started with it. I began using Nero 4 (or 3) and CDRWin 3.6 as everybody recommended.
But I had too many buffer-underruns until the point that I thought that my burner was dying. Then I found a specialized audio program and all my problems said goodbye thanks to the RAM buffer in Feurio, that was later copied in Nero 5 (possibly Jens helped them as it seems they have a good relationship). With Nero 5 I could burn data CDs without coasters finally. For audio Feurio still was much better: track editor, almost no bugs (Nero a bit more unstable and bloatware), easier, faster and help files that really helped unlike Nero.
I really can’t understand the praise Nero receives…
And that last sector bugs is just unbelieveble… it was working well before… instead of improving the program they go backwards. I can’t trust the program… They can have new bugs in version 6 in things that were working fine before.

Well, a true audiophile won’t be using MP3 anyway, so that shouldn’t be much of a concern. And the bit in the article about nero clipping the end of files is total BS.
Also the piece about the limitation at 21kHz doesn’t matter because even the best human hearing can only hear up to 18 or so (the people that say 20kHz are sadly mistaken.).

Um, somewhat incongruous statements…? Ever heard of harmonics re: frequency response? I guess we shouldn’t be designing audio components with wide bandwidths then? Perhaps a brickwall filter & no oversampling for CDs, too? 20k a figment, eh…? How about 4dB down @ 20k for yours truly @ age 18?

BTW a “true audiophile” wouldn’t stoop to non pressed media, so the whole argument is pointless on those grounds…

Interesting thread! It’s all very deja vu of the old argument of CD vs vinyl, or solid-state vs tube amps, or active vs passive crossovers… which means that it’s all mainly subjective. But burning with a program when you know it’s not perfect is annoying, even if you can’t hear it. Time for me to change burning progs!

I won’t use Nero to rip audio. I useda use EAC exclusively till I got my plex, and now I use plextools… seems to have better error correction. I haven’t burnt with plextools yet, but if it’s up to the usual quality of plextor software it should do a perfect job.

Mp3 by definition removes something from the audio stream; but then again so does 44.1 kHz sampling, along with the quality of your cables, amp, preamp, speakers, room etc. The only way to get perfect music reproduction is to go to the concert - but that has it’s own problems. How many albums sound like the band live?

Mp3 compressed with LAME at 256 kbps comes close, and through a good amp and headphones it’s hard to tell the differences to the original CD. But my ears aren’t as young as they once were.

PW

Hmm, that’s somewhat of a red herring argument… The pressed CD is obviously sampled from the original source (or master), & it’s reproduction is not at issue. A 1:1 copy of it’s content is. I postulate that the general principles of hi-fi land apply equally well here. However, let’s not confuse PC audio (esp Mp3…) with fidelity to the original source software, in this case the pressed CD. Even a modest setup will easily display collapse of the sound stage. There’s nothing like a re-sample/compress of a re-sample to confuse the issue. Hence mastering done at 24/96 & resampling to 16/44. It may well be a placebo effect, but I’d also attribute strident, sibilant sounding CDRW copies to burning software & CDRs themselves. In response to the original post, I find I’m partial to dupes via CloneCD (ahem…) on Kodak Silver/Gold disks…

The often quoted axioms of CD vs Vinyl, etc, are also spurious. Given the state of software availability, hardware alone is not the determining factor. Now when it comes to active vs passive x-overs, the only reason for passive is $ & ease of integration into existing componentry. It’s staggering to listen to a high order active system with seemless integration, not a hint of ringing, complete baffle step compensation, etc, when the “optimally” aligned passive counterpart sounds pedestrian…

BTW, I wouldn’t put complete faith in Plextor for perfect results…

Perhaps this OT response should be in the audio section - or even another board…:wink:

Ok ok stevem; you have a point. I have a tendency to waffle at times. I probably shouldn’t be talking too much about hifi when my main listening is via headphones from a Laptop sound card (ESS maestro) and the amount of equalization and dfx processing I have to use on it is staggering, just to make it bearable. Is there something available that plugs into a USB port and drives headphones with hifi quality? For quality audio I have to either use the headphone output of my plex drive (if I turn off digital audio under device manager) or my stereo.
Back to the topic; I have an old CD with a few ‘holes’ in it that I was thinking of throwing out. The holes start on the printing of the disk and go all the way down to the polycarbonate - you can see through it in a few places. Nothing could copy the affected tracks, until I used plextools. Maximum error correction, 50 retries. It gave me 110 errors on track 9, 6621 on track 10, and 6254 on track 11. After burning the wavs to cdrw and listening to it… I can’t hear any of these errors. Not a bad result!

In my (humble) opinion, the best for DAE ripping is plextools; the best for mp3 compressing is LAME and either Nero or plextools for writing, and Winamp for listening - with Dfx if you need it. But don’t use the headphone output of an old laptop for quality audio!
EAC is best for ripping if you don’t have a plex drive.

PW