HD DVD: Blu-ray Has Problems

Just thought I would post a link for a interesting read.

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Very interesting. Thanks for the info. I really don’t want to support MS, but reading about the copy protection, I may root for HD DVD since it will use a less stricter copy protection.

Even though everyone likes Blu-Ray it could go the same way as BETA-Max video did back in the days.

It is allways the consumers that in the end controls what format will win (or be dominant).

For me it feels like HD-DVD is a more natural way of evolution, since DVD has been around so long now. HD-DVD is just a improvment. I don’t know if the HD-DVD standard allows for 1080p but it’s nice anyway.

The storage space is boosted, burner prices will not be that high, media will probably be cheaper too.

And production of media, recorders, players will be cheap to since the production lines only needs minor modification and it will be 100% backward compatible.

The question I am wondering, is if the standard will be modifyed to allow contenc on the HD-DVDs to be in 1080p format. Even the early players can’t output it. This would be nice.

Ah well we will have to wait and see, for now DVD is still the format that everyone has. Before you complain, I found the comments on the above URL to be interesting. I am not for HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, and most “normal” people don’t care, they just want the media and be able to play it.

Posting some of the comments from the URL above. In case it goes away.

Quotes:

By la_bruin

No one said that HD-DVD didn’t have DRM, you bonehead. RTFM.

The point being made here is that Sony is the company behind a prospective format that an entire industry may standardize on. Meanwhile Sony is also company with a history of horrendously bad decision making when it comes to technology. The DRM/Rootkit debacle is a perfect example of this.

You say that the division of Sony responsible for the rootkit has nothing to do with BluRay or the PS3 and I say bullsh–.

Sony is a company that has definitive interests in overprotecting it’s intellectual property from Sony Pictures & Entertainment - not to mention backers like Fox Studios.

This is also the company that has produced such “winners” like Sony MiniDisc, Sony MemoryStick, Sony BetaMax, and most recently, Sony Connect… a little known music download service with it’s own proprietary DRM than no one uses.

And while I’m hesitant to trust ANYTHING with Microsoft’s backing on it, I have to believe that as a consumer, a company that is pushing for consumer choice on WHERE I PLAY MY MOVIES is doing things that are in my best interests. I’ve dreaming of a day where all my media can be stored on a Home Server and replicated to a Portable Player - without the need to store thousands of discs.

It’s very clear that Sony does not share this consumer vision.

By la_bruin

Pardon me but I’m tired of people complaining about how “consumers are the losers” in this war.

Consumers are a voluntary army that can enlist at any time. If you don’t want to get hurt - don’t sign up. Wait until you see a side that’s winning, then jump on the bandwagon. Simple as that.

If the issue at hand here is standardization to maximize content production and minimize the cost to the consumer, then y’all should be hailing Microsoft as a bunch of frickin’ gods.

That’s right. I said it. Microsoft is the kingpin of standardization, maximizing content production and minimizing consumer cost. You call Windows an OS tax. Meanwhile, Windows has single-handedly standardized the way an industry writes software, builds hardware devices drivers, and develops web pages.

More software has been written for Windows, more hardware is supported under Windows, and all for a ~$80. Meanwhile, the next closest competitor is the Mac at ~$110. (And relax you Linuxheads - y’all have basically the web server market and that’s it)

The reality is that all this high-def DVD hub bub will get played out very quickly on the basis of high-def DVD player availability and cost. The high end afficionados will buy the $799 HD-DVD player and balk at the $1800 investment for the BluRay player. The rest of the world will buy the $499 player or the Xbox360 player to a lesser extent. (The affluence of most Xbox360 owners will make the HD-DVD player purchase a no-brainer.

Meanwhile, studios that produce HD-DVD discs will ALSO more importantly put the original low-def DVD version on the flip side of the disc (something only HD-DVD can do) and position the HD-side of the DVD as a “future value add” for customers that eventually move to HD-DVD to prevent their movie collection from being stale: “Buy this disc now, and be ready for the future of HD-DVD!” This in itself will sell the HD-DVD format over BluRay.

What about the PS3’s BluRay drive you say? I think the NON-success of Universal MiniDisc (UMD) format pretty much tells the story right there. With millions of PSP units sold to basically kids with no discretionary budget and very little interest in paying $20/disc, UMD is going down in flames in a chicken-and-egg scenario… no customers = no production.

As much as it’s ballyhooed, the availablity of high-def players on either console isn’t going to make or break this war for either side. It’s gonna be the individual players from manufacturers like Aiwa, Panasonic, Mitsubishi and other companies.

By la_bruin

What a colossally ridiculous reason to support BluRay. To dismiss a technology simply on the basis that Microsoft is a proponent is an infantile “You’re either for us or against us” frame of reference and frankly, just plain immature.

Check your premises:

  • Microsoft’s motivation is to get you to buy more of their Windows stuff. Hence, they want DVD content playable and COPYABLE to their operating systems for things like Windows-based Video Servers and Windows-based Portable Media Players. Simple as that. HD-DVD allows it, BluRay won’t.
  • Microsoft has stated repeatedly that they don’t care which format wins - as long as it enables PCs to take full advantage of the format. BluRay’s failure to support things like Video Overlays (like HD-DVD does) makes it impossible for Director’s Commentaries to ‘mark up’ a video in motion to, for example, circle a mistake or a rendering issue for the interest of the fans.

Check your facts too:

  • XBox 360 isn’t compatible with some XBox Original games because of a complete change in CPU and GPU, and a complete change in the way XBox Live is handled. Real-time chip-level instruction mapping in emulation is no small feat, son.
  • XBox360 is every bit a leap in in technology as they say it is - they just didn’t have as rich as game line up as they probably wanted. Wait until Fight Night 3 or Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion are released before you comment.
  • The Toshiba HD-DVD Player DID work. Saying that it didn’t is an out-and-out falsehood. Did you even bother stopping by the booth?

By la_bruin

"BluRay is in every way equal or superior format "
Oh for god’s sakes… you don’t know anything about the two specs do you? You sound like a die-hard Playstation fanboy. I’ll even recap a few things you should have gleaned from this article.

  1. CAPACITY
    HD-DVD will be 30GB. Sony openly admitted that Blu-Ray will only be 25GB for the next few years.

  2. LAYERING
    HD-DVD will support playback layering meaning that Directors will be able to talk about a movie while it’s playing, and highlight ON SCREEN things going on, like mistakes or bloopers. They’ll also be able to play two movies side-by-side to show two different cuts of a movie in synch to make better use of film takes. BluRay doesn’t support any of this.

  3. DUAL FORMAT DISCS
    HD-DVDs can be produced easily to support the older MPEG1 format of a movie on one side and the newer High Def version on the opposite side. BluRay can not.

  4. PLAYER PRODUCTION
    HD-DVD has been churning out production units successfully. BluRay has been suffering from production problems because of the accuracy needed for the blue laser and the purported, increase storage. Production problems = higher costs & later release = fewer products sold

  5. DISC PRODUCTION
    Because of the new laser in BluRay, discs must be thinner and are more prone to production problems, meaning fewer discs off the production line will be functional. Additionally, duplication accuracy will be diminished in BluRay for commercial movies. HD-DVD uses the same relative technology as today’s DVDs resulting in no increase in errors.

  6. MENUING
    HD-DVD uses iHD, a menuing system based on DHTML which is a lightweight definitive specification that can be guaranteed to be implemented on every HD-DVD player. BluRay requires the usage of a flavor of Java called JEM that because of the varied implementations of Java on future players, it will be impossible to guarantee that a BluRay disc’s menuing system will run on all players.

  7. MANAGED COPY
    This is a HUGE point. While there are more studios signed up for BluRay than for HD-DVD, this is pretty irrelevant: The studios will publish to whatever format people are buying. What’s WORSE for BluRay however is that Fox Studios has demanded a higher level of DRM protection than what is available in the BluRay or HD-DVD spec. BluRay caved in and said they’d do it making managed copy a virtual impossibility, while HD-DVD has not. This means among other things that HD-DVD will enable people to copy and play their movies through stored copies on Home Video Servers, Portable Media Players, Home computers, etc. while it is extremely unlikely that BluRay will.

  8. RELEASE DATE & COST
    HD-DVD will definitively release their player through Toshiba at $499 and $799 in March 2006.
    BluRay is supposed to release their first player in May 2006 through Pioneer at $1,800 however it is very likely that that release date will slip.

twosheds

If Blu-Ray is as prone to flaws as the article indicates, it is going to be useless either as an archival or media-storage method. If the article is right, the only way BR could avoid an unacceptable risk of catastrophic read/write errors is either by keeping component quality and build so high that the players alone will take years (if ever)to become affordable and disseminate or to include some kind of built-in data redundancy packages (such as can be made for WinRar), which would slow read speed and reduce the discrete data-space available to the capacity of HD-DVD or below.

Having lost valuable archival material to DVD media in the past, I have come to realise that it is insane to trust archival backup to very hi-capacity media - this insanity would be 10x greater in the case of Blu-Ray. The only way you can trust hi-capacity media with your material is if it has acceptable failure limits. Blu-Ray seems to have no prospect of qualifying.

The PS3 thing is not irreversible if HD-DVD takes off - look at how M$ have caved in with the HD-DVD add-on for the X-Box 360. Sony could have to do the same with the Playstation.

Factories worldwide are pre-tooled for HD-DVD production, and Blu-Ray itself -according to the article above- will only use as much storage space for the film itself as HD-DVD.

This is starting to look like a no-brainer - HD-DVD wins.

gawd21

“Knox said that Blu-ray could see a much higher production flaw rate,” Quantity still has not yet proven it’s self and any company that thinks it does is LOST and will not get my business!!! I am not one for wasting my money on crap that is GOING to break in in less than a year even if it is from a small scratch. Sony Needs to get real about this issue!

"Knox said that HD DVD can verify that every disc will play on every player, "

Sony Still has yet to be able to claim this!!!
Java is slow and over sized with to many people believing other. Java has never been anything more than slow and junky!( I use these word in the hope that the retards can understand).
“Knox highlighted the fact that of the American Film Institute’s Top 100 movies, more than 60 were from studios supporting the HD DVD format, and a majority of the major-grossing films of the last three years were from those same studios. HD DVD has focused on quality, not quantity, Knox said.” Supports what I said 100%.

“Knox said Fox was unhappy with the decision to let consumers watch movies where they please using Mandatory Managed Copy. Managed Copy has become a contentious point in the next-generation DVD battle, with HP demanding that Blu-ray require the technology on all discs. However, as Fox’s proprietary DRM will run after AACS, the studio could theoretically restrict such portability.”
FOX can go to hell, I will never accept what they want and I will stop watching movies 100% if I have to follow their rules. I mean it’s entertainment not a for of life such as food or water. “F” you Fox!

“HD DVD, meanwhile, is launching its first players in March. Toshiba will bring two models to market with price points of $499 and $799 USD. The high-end model will feature improved output connections for home theater aficionados who have components systems.”
Toshiba Still the leaders in DVD players, will tell you how it is. Sony has lost this last year, but they are from Japan , and think that they rule the world when they are lost and have been for the last 50 years.

“For the average consumer, with surround sound systems “from a box,” the $499 HD DVD player will be sufficient, Knox said. Consumers will see the $499 models in stores such as Best Buy, while the $799 player will be available through specialty retailers where home theater buffs can additionally purchase high-end audio systems.” Hmmmm, less that a 1/3 of Blu-Ray and it’s still better than what we have now… Who wins??? HD-DVD. Sony needs to get a grip!!!

Flame if you want, but you will only show how stupid you are and that your are to sad to grow up. HD-DVD has vastly beaten Blu-Ray.

Now to add about the SONY Geek thing… Sony has lost everything that anyone that has a 10% of a brain would buy. I feel that only the really stupid and the lost people would buy anything from Sony, EA, Pillsbury.

Sorry for any spelling errors, but it happpens and I don’t really care!

la_bruin

BluRay in every sense of the definition is an inferior specification in all areas except future storage capacity. It is true that their next gen discs and players will read formats at 50GB or higher, but this generation of media will be entirely 25GB only. But spec superiority/inferiority won’t determine what standard is adopted.

What matters will be the balance of buyers & sellers. If there are high def buyers of a certain format’s players, there will be sellers of content for that format. And if there is more quality content in a given format than another, that better supported format will encourage more buyers of players.

While the PS3 fanboys will try to fan the flames with their BluRay drive, I highly doubt that console adoption will drive high def DVD sales. People buy consoles to play games… not play DVDs. Consoles are rarely a home’s primary DVD player.

No, what will drive a format’s player purchase will be the cost. And Toshiba isn’t “selling players below cost” as you purport - they don’t need to. HD-DVD’s economies of scale already make player & media production inexpensive. This is a fact that has been repeated over and over again throughout this debate. HD-DVD equipment and media production is based on the exact same manufacturing facilities as today’s existing DVD manufacturing processes will very few changes.

Compare this to BluRay which essentially requires a complete retrofit of each manufacturing plant.

Combine this with the higher error and fault rate of BluRay equipment and media and you’re naturally looking at a more expensive product due to higher manufacturing costs.

And I assume that you’re quoting the news item at that ever-so-reliable source of media, The Register, for your information about Samsung’s $1000 BD-P1000 BluRay player.
(http://www.theregister.c…5/samsung_blu-ray_first/) I find it interesting that you decided on your own to extrapolate their argument by saying that “the entry level BluRay player from Samsung would be on-par with the $700 high-end HD-DVD player from Toshiba” which is a complete fabrication.
The Samsung BluRay player has virtually the same functionality as the HD-A1, the entry level (READ: Low end) version of Toshiba’s HD-DVD player.

The high end Toshiba player, the HD-XA1, features among other things, 4 DSP engines for individual audio channel management and control (for folks that want to consolidate the HD experience to a single interface)

I suggest you read Toshiba’s announcement of the HD-A1 & HD-XA1 before making any other false statements.

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Thats it. I copied the posts that I though had points to make. I like both formats, but as the posts say. It’s the consumers that will decide what format wins. It has nothing to do with the technology of the formats but all other things around it, production, price, compatability, etc.

This should be interesting for everyone.

Blu-ray vs. DVD Image Quality

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2666&p=13

Blu-Ray’s quality looks better from those Photos…:frowning:

Im still for HD-DVD…:slight_smile:

the only difference I can see from those photos is the color from dvd has a redish tinge or should I say a warmer color, I wonder if both plasma panels were equally calibrated?

all I’m saying is that the difference is not that dramatic, the guy who saw it in person expressed the same!!!

here’s the quote:

"One thing we did get a good chance to see at the show was a number of live Blu-ray and HD-DVD demonstrations with real high-definition content, and honestly, we weren’t all that impressed. Don’t get us wrong, it looked good, just not breathtaking or anything like that.

The problem is that the jump from progressive scan DVD (480p) to Blu-ray and HD-DVD at 720p or 1080p just isn’t that great, even on a 46" display. When viewed side by side with DVD content, the picture looks quite comparable, it’s just that the Blu-ray/HD-DVD content is noticeably sharper (which makes sense since it is much higher resolution)."

I am not really impressed, then again we are looking at a picture of a picture. Guess we will just have to wait until I see it live.

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