Freedom of speech

vbimport

#21

As has been hinted at before, it’s not just the rules that we check for (though, as Dee pointed out, we do check for forum-wide rules + political rules). We also check quality of discussion-- i.e., if it is no longer a two-way discussion, what purpose is there?

I personally have yet to see evidence that, more often than not, a political thread can remain civil in any situation without causing ill feelings at a later time, in a different place.


#22

“Shutting off” a discussion BEFORE is goes “off the rails” simply because
someone, anyone, moderator administrator or “whomever” THINKS the
discussion is “heading that way”, being brutally honest, it is often double-speak for:

“I believe I am entering an argument against people who are more articulate and better informed than I am and therefore It is an argument I’m going to lose, THUS I will use my position of authority to cut off the discussion before it looks like I’m cutting it off for that reason”

FAIL! either for cutting off the discussion without hurt feelings or preserving anyone’s dignity

You can argue that this is not the case but everyone except the person arguing that justification knows they are being “disingenuous” (worst of all to themselves)

The ONLY solutions that work are having a dedicated "political discussion forum"
or not allowing political discussions at all.

And frankly in my opinion giving people “somewhere to vent” with the people they know and share common interests with are better than banning those discussions entirely.

Create a forum that is only open to well established members.
Require them to specifically log into that specific forum.

NO RULES WHATSOEVER, but whenever topics get “political” you
COPY the topic to that forum and delete the political posts from
the edited topic left in the main forum.

Political discussion outside that one area is expressly forbidden.

No need to “Warn”, “Ban” or chastise members, simply exercise a methodical and ruthless policy of moving any political topic or post to that one “Dungeon”

I even have a name for you to use for it: “The Oubilette”

French noun, in context it means “Dungeon”, but has been used for
"Sewer" (both are appropriate here)

Literally translated it means “place of forgetting”

In short the perfect name for a place for political discussion on a technical forum.

Private messages and e-mail only work between two people but when you have three or more people interested in a discussion… FAIL!


#23

Open debate in a thread can not be remotely duplicated through private messages. How can a person be included in a series of private messages if they never know the discussion exists?

The way threads are locked currently is inconsistent at best and done under the personal views of the pertinent moderator at worst. It seems that, in general, “political correctness” applies when it comes to what threads meet an untimely demise. Allen brings up a good point in that it is simple for anyone to get a thread closed. All they need to do is make a comment and they get the last word right before the thread is locked.

Maybe another solution is to lock the offending individual from further commenting in that thread but I think this is a bad idea and not near as good a solution as a dedicated forum.

If what is currently happening regarding thread locking is going to continue then I would rather see all threads with any chance of a political/social leaning not be allowed. At least that way we are all being treated equally.

I have become reflexive to what happens in threads that even remotely bend toward political/social discussion. They suffer a sharp death at erratic times and for erratic reasons. When I first came here there was far more tolerance for political discussion and general expression of opinion regarding non-technical topics. Unfortunately this is no longer true. A dedicated forum for open discussion seems such a logical and easy solution to the problems of trying to police such discussions in the open forums.

Edit:

I want to add one further observation regarding what makes a particular site grow and meet the needs of its users. While this site is a great resource for those seeking technical knowledge, it is also a place where many of us go for social interaction. If the only reason I came here was for technical purposes then I would not frequent this site nearly as often I as I currently do. Most long term members are the same, IMO. I used to spend far more time here when I first joined because discussion of non-technical topics was far less moderated. It was a rare occurrence to see a thread locked back then. People were put in the “sin bin” before the thread was locked.

I think it is a good idea for this site to promote traffic in any way they can because the original reason this site came about (i.e. disc burning) is coming to an end. There are plenty of other sites that offer general reviews and info on hardware of all types. I just don’t see why there is so much resistance to limited access forum for controversial topics. It would be a way to generate traffic and get more interaction between members. I feel like management here is telling us that we are too immature to be given such a forum. I think we deserve more credit and management needs to loosen their grip on discussions of a non-technical nature. IMO, this will only make MYCE stronger, not weaker.


#24

First I want to say I don’t think I can improve on AllanDeGroot’s & UTR’s last posts.

What I do have to say to Dee & Albert:
When I & some other members try to stay within the written rules.
What else do we members have to go by ?
Then a thread is closed anyway it seems unfair.
The anticipation & interpretation by a moderator or admin is used too much. IMO.
Again it is very hard to know how to stay within that & be able to post anything political at all.
Also why not just a post removal of the offenders post with a warning to just that member by PM.
I’m only using the US Shutdown thread as an example . Not trying to get it reopened. As above I only saw on comment that could be construed as vulgar by a member that does that with some regularity.
I have seen worse with no closing of the thread. I just wasn’t a political thread.
I saw one other statement in the same post that would be considered hateful.
I did reply with a request the he not play the “race card” .
Basically all of the US Congress was called bigots because of fearing Obama because he is black. I’m almost quoting those are not my words . Neither is it my opinion.


#25

[QUOTE=DrageMester;2703250]
However, in my experience on this forum, every political discussion eventually goes to hell in a handbasket, and usually it’s not the fault of new inexperienced members, so I don’t see how it would help to restrict the political discussions to “old” members…[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=AllanDeGroot;2703336]…The ONLY solutions that work are having a dedicated "political discussion forum"
or not allowing political discussions at all…[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=UTR;2703350]…The way threads are locked currently is inconsistent at best and done under the personal views of the pertinent moderator at worst…
If what is currently happening regarding thread locking is going to continue then I would rather see all threads with any chance of a political/social leaning not be allowed. At least that way we are all being treated equally…
I think we deserve more credit and management needs to loosen their grip on discussions of a non-technical nature. IMO, this will only make MYCE stronger, not weaker…[/QUOTE]
As to the closing of the USA Shutdown thread, I thought I made it pretty clear that the News section is not the place for random political discussion.

Just a reminder folks…We are a Technology forum. I too feel outrage that a bunch of ‘good old boys’ (and gals) have the audacity to pull a stunt like this in the name of the very people they were hired to serve but there are many avenues in which to discuss this other than this, a Technology forum. Keep it relevant and clean! TIA

You guys didn’t keep it relevant to the shutdown and went (IMO) way to far afield. You are absolutely right about closure being at the discretion of moderators and if you feel hurt or offended by my action I apologize.

PS: Should I have shut it down sooner?


#26

Personally, I think policing some threads in here is like herding cats. Locking down a thread is always done subjectively. It can’t be done otherwise. For me the frustrating part of a thread getting locked that I have participated in is that I can’t respond to a comment I feel needs a response. The Shutdown thread was an example of this. It was inferred that white males in the House (i.e. conservatives) were racist for disagreeing with Obama as a direct response to one of my posts. I would have liked to have a discussion with the person that made this comment but never got the chance to do so. I feel that I had unfinished business in that thread as by extension with me being a white, male conservative I felt I was also being classified as a racist for disagreeing with many of Obama’s policies.

If the management wants no political discussion (as all such discussion comes with strong opinions) then the thread should have been deleted immediately. If political discussion is allowed then I think it was closed prematurely.

Moderating threads under the current rules can not be easy. Speaking for myself, I don’t mean any of my comments in this thread to be taken as a personal attack or critique. This is why I think having a limited access forum for controversial topics would make all the moderators’ jobs much easier.


#27

[QUOTE=UTR;2703361]

Moderating threads under the current rules can not be easy. Speaking for myself, I don’t mean any of my comments in this thread to be taken as a personal attack or critique. [/QUOTE]
Again I agree with UTR on this.

[QUOTE=olyteddy;2703357]As to the closing of the USA Shutdown thread, I thought I made it pretty clear that the News section is not the place for random political discussion. [/QUOTE]

Of course a News thread about something caused entirely by politicians would never evoke “random political discussion” .

It obviously should have led to a discussion of a technical level.
Like will the shutdown cause DVD blank cost to increase.
Or will it cause all Obama support of the MPAA to cease.


#28

Sure is a nice day today


#29

[QUOTE=Kenshin;2703122]Freedom and liberty at best can be illusions as democracy can never be perfect, equality can never be complete, and humans cannot ever reach sanity, negotiate reason, and find enough about themselves.[/quote] Of course. We all have different needs and opinions. Some will collide pretty heavily.

I used to say there’s no freedom of speech and so I could say little on the web, none of the things that I really think. I can’t say that for other countries. Colonies and slaves under Rome and Maya both seem to have enjoyed some degrees of freedom of speech.
As long as their masters were not annoyed by it.

And some had the means to preserve for posterity. Edmund Burke and Alexis de Tocquevile both survived long enough to write books that contained ideas and opinions unfashionable enough to lead the authors to instant deaths in most other civilizations. People unafraid of death after years of torture can perform miracles because they are what casual people fear most and people in fear are the easiest targets for manipulation.
Meh. Most books usually get popular after the authors are long gone. Some books get a holy status. Wisdom is not in books, but there may be knowledge.

How’s this for free speech: I have invested a lot of time in this forum and see very little results. The knowledge is immensly fragmented. Most posts these days bore me. I am grateful for the rare interesting posts, but his ain’t one of them. Maybe we should apply Will Wheaton’s law.


#30

I think we should all be proud of being a member of a forum where many different nationalities, cultures, religions and political views meet each other, I for sure am. I have always thought that our forum should be a place where everything that is according to law and common sense is allowed.

Unfortunately the latter is the issue here. Common sense is subjective and differs from person to person. Based on that, I think our rules might be explained different by everyone here

I hope everyone here understands that for us this is also hard. We ask our staff to remain neutral in political threads but even then their actions are sometimes explained as picking sides. These discussions put a pressure on us as a team, and the only thing I can ask from our members is for some understanding that also for us it’s not always black and white on what to allow. These discussions are also a struggle for us and I think it has taken away more people from us that we would like.

Closing a thread has the negative side that you can’t respond anymore while you might want that, but for us it also means that it remains manageable. I regret that some people explain this a limit as freedom as speech but I hope those can at least slightly understand where it comes from.

Anyway, when reading most of the comments, I understand what you mean. But I think we’re all looking for a solution. The only solutions I can come up with are that we continue the discussion here and that I also discuss it with the rest of the staff. The admin team will try and write a proposal that we’ll discuss with the entire staff and with all members.

The solution is fully open and I appreciate suggestions. Please note that besides your own interests, please also think about the interests of other members and our staff…


#31

[QUOTE=olyteddy;2703357]You guys didn’t keep it relevant…[/QUOTE] I’m pretty sure I’m not to blame for the shutdown of the shutdown thread, since I didn’t post in there… unless you somehow used ESP to read my thoughts about what I [I]might[/I] have written in the thread [I]if[/I] I had decided to join in, which I didn’t. :wink:


#32

An Internet forum, or message board, is an online [U]discussion site[/U] where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages.

(IMO)
A political sub forum may be the way to go If for no other reason than to have a place to move post that are going off thread, Instead of closing the thread itself.
Where 2 or more people can say If you want to continue this line of discussion let’s move this discussion over to the sub forum in order to not take this thread off topic.
Where moderators can move the off topic post for whoever wants to continue in that direction and leave the original thread there for its value to others if they don’t do it voluntarily themselves.

You still need some rules and the hardest part would be to have enough moderators to watch over it and keep it from going too far. This is after all a Family friendly site.

Perhaps a nice big pop up that says enter at your own risk, subject matter may be more than you can handle. :bigsmile:

One of the things that have kept me coming back here is all the off topic stuff that has very little to do with anything Tech that this forum has to offer. Even though I do not have a lot of time to participate in them, I do read as much as I can and I do enjoy it. :iagree: :smiley:

Thanks for listening to my 3 cents worth.


#33

I think it is good that this subject is being discussed by the admin & moderator staff. I hope you do come up with a good solution.

I don’t want & neither do other members like myself a “free for all” .
Most of us don’t want or intend to say " Member#242 you are such an idiot your head should be shoved up you ass till you are turned inside out".
Of course such comments should not be allowed.
That isn’t discussion it is insults.

Even if Mr. Belvedere Has told me I’m free to leave the planet anytime I like.

[QUOTE=Mr. Belvedere;2695158]I’m not forcing you to stay on this planet. Feel free to travel to another one. I’ll be generous: Pick any other planet in existence anywhere in the known or uknown universe. [/QUOTE]
I made no complaint about this nor am I doing that here. I took it as a good natured jab . That is how it should be & the same applies to political discussion.
A little thickness of skin & the common sense to know the difference between a comment like Mr. Belvedere’s to me & an insult.
Of course he left out where the space ship is that I could use.
IMO it is the over breeders that should leave .
Colonize the rest of the universe. And realize the the Earth has more that enough people actually too many.
By the time the defenders of over population realize that it really is a problem .
At my age they will probably be turning me into Soylent Green. I still hope they choke on me.
Think of how the Earth would be with only ten million people.
Everything that is here now could still be produced .
Except we would have clean air & water everywhere.
Plenty of food for everyone.

Back on topic:
What we would like & I hope I speak for some of the other members .
Are some clear rules that we can attempt to follow.
That doesn’t mean a rule like “No political discussion” anywhere else on the forum but in a sub-forum for it. IMO only heated political discussion should be moved to a sub-forum (if one is created).
There should be rules for political discussion in the rest of the forum . So just one post or thread isn’t automatically moved to the sub-forum. I know there are rules posted in the Living Room sticky . The problem with those are even when followed threads still get closed.
Sometimes there are no violations of the rules except a moderator’s anticipation that rules will be violated.
Other times it is one post by one member that violates the rules. That may or may not be on purpose to close the thread. Many times just removing the offending post would be the solution. Then the members that stay within the rules could continue the reasonably civil discussion.


#34

[QUOTE=Dee;2703222]The concept of freedom of speech is enjoyed by most people.
However, freedom of speech does not mean you can just say anything you like without having to face the consequences of what you may say.
[/QUOTE]

Another example is if you live in CHINA or Vietnam (etc)

[QUOTE=Dee;2703222]
Regarding a special political forum where anything goes?

[B]I don’t think so.[/B] It would never work, and I would strongly oppose it. There are many reasons why I would oppose it, but one reason is obvious.
People wouldn’t leave their grievances in that special forum, it would spill out into open forum.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve been on other forums where it does work, and WHEN (not if) it “spills out” you move simply move it, Philosophically you mop it up and dump the mob bucket back into the sewer (political forum).

You do so methodically and ruthlessly, but WITHOUT moderator
comment beyond “This discussion has been moved to the political discussion forum” because ANY comment the moderator makes
WILL be taken the wrong way by SOMEONE.

But the main reason for such a place is as a “Safety valve”.

it also serves as an irresistible filter to clearly identify the forum “vermin” who need to be expunged… because anyone who repeatedly drags sewage out of the sewer into the main forums can be banned with a clear conscience.

But again, you never comment on it, you just DO it.

Importantly a place to “socialize with Off topic discussion” helps
develop a sense of community, particularly for those that actually contribute “Content”.

Even if it’s someone who simply explains to some newbie how to get windows to do some particular “Thing” I have both received (rarely) and given (often) this type of advice.

Dee, “hard tech” like you give is central to this forum but the “soft tech”
(like suggesting how to organize their files & folders, or what free software works best with the minimum annoyance) is probably just as important


#35

[QUOTE=cholla;2703436]Even if Mr. Belvedere Has told me I’m free to leave the planet anytime I like.[/quote] Ah yes. I remember that comment. :bigsmile:

I took it as a good natured jab . That is how it should be & the same applies to political discussion.
A little thickness of skin & the common sense to know the difference between a comment like Mr. Belvedere’s to me & an insult.

This has reminded me, again, like many many other times before, that text can be interpreted in lots of numerous ways. I consider myself fortunate that this interpretation was exactly what i was aiming at.

Of course he left out where the space ship is that I could use.
:bow: The perfect counter to my illlogical reply.

Right. Back to the topic of everyone’s frustration…

Can we try to accept we all come from different parts of this spinning blue ball and that this means we might have huge differences in opinions regarding freedom and privacy? Most cannot even begin to fathom how each others lives are, but why should that be an annoyance?

We all love technology. Why would we allow ourselves to convince each other to abuse our common platform to force each others kind of opinion on freedom? We will continue to be different no matter what happens.

We can let it destroy each other, or improve each other.


#36

[QUOTE=Mr. Belvedere;2703465]Can we try to accept we all come from different parts of this spinning blue ball and that this means we might have huge differences in opinions regarding freedom and privacy? Most cannot even begin to fathom how each others lives are, but why should that be an annoyance?[/QUOTE]

Some of my closest friends IRL have political views that are 180 degrees opposite of mine. We can argue politics and then sit down for dinner and laugh our a$$es off together with great non-political conversation.


#37

[QUOTE=cholla;2703436]I think it is good that this subject is being discussed by the admin & moderator staff. I hope you do come up with a good solution.

Back on topic:
What we would like & I hope I speak for some of the other members .
Are some clear rules that we can attempt to follow.

I know there are rules posted in the Living Room sticky. The problem with those are even when followed threads still get closed.

Many times just removing the offending post would be the solution. Then the members that stay within the rules could continue the reasonably civil discussion.[/QUOTE]

+1 on discussing it. I personally advocate a ‘By Subscription’ or ‘Opt In’ subforum.

There are also other applicable rules icluding the general forum rules: http://club.myce.com/f34/announcement-rules-forum-some-tips-guidelines.html and an FAQ section: http://club.myce.com/faq.php?:.

It did occur to me to edit but I felt that that would get me accused of censorship. Perhaps I should have deleted the thread. Frankly the main reason I closed it was because it really wasn’t relevant to the subforum it was in.


#38

@ olyteddy , Once again I want to make it clear I’m not trying to get the US Shutdown thread reopened. Or bring a major redescution of it to this thread.

I pleases me that this is bringing the possibility of a place for political discussion & maybe some additional clarification of the rules.
I know some join without reading the forum rules but I learned to do that from participating on other forums . I’m no longer a member of the two forums I was a mod at. One of those was an admin level mod. So I’m not inexperenced in what it takes to be a mod.

I guess some of the discussion wasn’t current news & in that light it wasn’t relevant. My perspective is anything that had cost the US is relevant. If that money hadn’t been spent by irresponsible politicians on & for countries other than the US. Then it would have been there & the shutdown wouldn’t have been necessary.
That also applies to any other frivolous spending by the US .
That is what the discssion between Kenshin was about for the most part.
Since the later posts in the thread were mostly between me & him I assumed they were the posts that closed the thread.
Maybe you had a different perspective of those posts.


#39

Yo Fellow Freaks-

[B]GIVE IT UP - THE SUBJECT IS CLOSED![/B]

This is a [B][I]privately[/I][/B] owned Forum - with qualified members [B][I]allowed [/I][/B]to post -[I] subject to the owners rules and regulations![/I]

If you don’t like that - go somewhere else and do your ranting-eh!!


#40

If MYCE becomes a blatant dictatorship then it will become a lonely place. No one is required to post here… NO ONE. I applaud the management’s willingness to discuss this topic and take our comments under consideration. Adding a forum that is mostly hidden, unless the person CHOOSES to participate, shouldn’t upset anyone here, IMO.