Feurio ATIP Information Question

vbimport

#1

Hi ALL,

Can anyone tell me what some of the information on the ATIP Output from Feurio. For example:
ATIP start of lead in: -02:44:58 (sector: -12358)
ATIP start of lead out: 79:59:73 (sector: 359998)
Manufacturer code: 97 15 17 - Ritek Co. (Type: 7)
Reference speed: -
Minimum recording speed: -
Maximum recording speed: -
Unrestriced use: No
Disc type: Not Rewriteable
Disc subtype: Medium Type A, low Beta category (A-)
Target writing power: 4
Power multiplication factor:-
Target y value: -
Erase/writer power ratio: -


What does this “Disc subtype” mean? Medium Type A, low Beta category (A-). Does that mean it is lower quality? Is Type A better than Type B or Type C? Is low Beta category of A+ better than A-, B+, B-, etc.? Also, what is this “Target writing power”? In this case it is 4. Is that better than 5, 6, or higher? Does any of this have to do with the quality of the CDRs? Any help in understanding would be appreciated. Thanks

SuperG


#2

sorry, don’t know the answer to the question. But how did you get that info? I have feurio, but don’t know how to make it give me that info.

Thanks.


#3

i don’t know the answers either and i don’t use feurio, but i’m fairly certain that all of these things are irrelevant when it comes to cdr quality cuz i’ve never seen these things discussed when the issue of cdr quality came up. the only way to know whether or not a cdr is of good quality is to actually test it.


#4

ATIP Information

Also ATIP (Absolute Time In Pre-groove) information can be found on a CD-R / CD-RW

Several different information about the CD-R / CD-RW that shall help the CD-Writer to write the CD-R best possible are stored here.

Feurio! can read out and display these information in this dialog box if this feature is supported by the CD-Writer.
Note: Some CD-Writers do read these ATIP information internally (and therefore adjust to the CD-R) but don´t ”publish” them - in this case Feurio! of course can´t display these information.
As far as we know only CD-RWs have complete ATIP information (e. g. information about writing speeds and so on).

Normal CD-Rs usually have stored information about: Lead-in beginning, maximum lead-out position, manufacturer code and ”Target Writing Power”.

Because this parameters are only interesting for experts, we do not describe the single parameters. If interested, please read the approbiate documents (e. g. NCITS T101228D INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY -SCSI Multimedia Commands - 2 (MMC-2)).

From: Feurio! CD-Writer online help © by Fangmeier Systemprogrammierung


#5

Originally posted by sk545
But how did you get that info? I have feurio, but don’t know how to make it give me that info.

Feurio! CD Writer > Extras > Output ATIP informations

:smiley:


#6

Originally posted by AZImmortal
i don’t know the answers either and i don’t use feurio, but i’m fairly certain that all of these things are irrelevant

when it comes to cdr quality cuz i’ve never seen these things discussed when the issue of cdr quality came up. the only way to know whether or not a cdr is of good quality is to actually test it.
And you seem to be wrong regarding the irrelevance.

Never discussed ? Right. Because very few persons @this site know what all this means. Spath is one of those.

To test how ? LOL ! Like [COLOR=darkblue]these ppl do ? Or like these ppl do their tests ( sorry, the info in Russian ) ?

@nmpaulcp

The only info taken from Feurio! that could be useful regarding the asked Qs is :

Several different information about the CD-R / CD-RW that shall help the CD-Writer to write the CD-R best possible are stored here.

See my report later on.

[/COLOR]


#7

Due to constant demand on these issues :

The Disc Identification Code is now moved to http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=433883#post433883

Running Optimum Power Control > http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=433891#post433891

[COLOR=indigo]Disc Grading System - BLER > http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=433898#post433898

A measure of the integrity of the data refrieved from a compact disc.
The block error rate can be measured over a given period of time.
It is usually reported in two or three ways by analyzers, i.e. :
Average BLER over entire part of the disc that has been read, peak BLER, etc.
Average of 220 is considered a marketable disc according to Red Book and Yellow Book standards.
Most manufacturers set higher standards for themselves, striving for an average BLER of under 50.

Grade A (BLER < 6) high quality disks
Grade B (BLER < 50) disks of good quality
Grade C (BLER < 100) disks of satisfactory quality

BLER

[/COLOR]

  • Edited by BoSkin on 03-06-18 *

#8


Optimum Power Control (OPC) by Plextor

Blank CD-R discs contain special areas that are not present on a pressed (factory-made) CD. Among these are the ATIP (Absolute Time in Pre-Groove), containing such things as the block count (absolute recordable length), dye layer composition, manufacturer model number, supported recording speeds, and the manufacturer’s recommendation for optimum laser power setting; the Program Memory Area (PMA); and the Power Calibration Area (PCA). The ATIP is located in the inner-most area of the disc, near the hub. The other areas are located nearby, in a reserved area before the lead-in. The beginning of the lead-in is addressed as time zero (00:00) – the first accessible address on a disc. The PCA and PMA, because they’re located before the lead-in area, have negative time addresses.

The PCA starts at -35 (-00:35) seconds and is used as a test area to determine the proper laser power for each recording session. Recording a CD-R disc is an involved process. In order for the writing to be done properly, so the final product can be interchangeable on any CD-ROM, CD-R or CD-RW multi-play drive, the microscopic marks (pits) ‘burned’ into the dye by the recording laser must be both the correct length and the correct distance from each other. Due to the variables involved, this can be a challenging job for drive mechanics. The characteristics of the dye on a disc may change with variations in ambient temperature and humidity, or there can be changes in dye thickness or variations in different dye batches, even from the same disc manufacturer. The deposition of the reflective coating may not be completely uniform. The sensitivity of the recording laser will vary over the surface of the disc and will also change as the disc and drive age. The surface of the disc may be microscopically uneven or the disc may be unbalanced and wobble, or the hub may be off center causing the disc to be a bit eccentric. The laser power needed to record a session last year may not be the same needed to add a session to the disc this year. Though rare, your disc may have been initially written on a completely different recorder, so the power needed for a previous session may not be sufficient for the current session.

Additional factors can affect the recording layer. The operating temperature of the drive, the selected recording speed in the software compared to the manufacturer’s rated speed, and the stability of the recording laser can all require changes in the laser power needed to make a good disc. Because of this, the laser power and the wavelength are defined as a range of values, rather than a fixed number. Laser power can range between 3.6 and 8.8 milliwatts. Laser wavelength can vary between 775 and 795 nanometers.

A primary reason for the success of CD recording technology is Optimum Power Control, or OPC. You may see OPC also defined as Optimal Power Calibration - neither is wrong; the Orange Book actually uses both terms. This operation is performed prior to each writing session on the disc.

Optimum Power Control (OPC) is implemented in almost all recorders to adjust the power of the recording laser to the optimum level for the existing conditions when a write is about to begin. For a starting point, each “blank” disc manufactured has a reference value in the ATIP for the appropriate laser power range recommended by the vendor. The recorder reads the value off the disc and then uses it to calculate the best laser power range for the recording session it is about to perform.

Here’s how it works: The PCA’s Test area has 100 numbered partitions, each 15 frames long. These frames can be recorded with uniform samples of equal numbers of ones and zeroes, in fixed-time intervals with each frame recorded at a different laser power. If the laser reads the optimum power value from the disc as 6 milliwatts, it will then record in the Test area using a power range between 4 milliwatts and 8 milliwatts.

The drive uses the 15 frames of each Test area partition to write 15 ‘blocks’ of data at 15 different laser power settings, seven stages above the optimum value, and seven stages below. For a recommended optimum power of 5.9mW (read from the blank disc) for example, the 15 test recordings would be at 4.1, 4.4, 4.6, 4.9, 5.1, 5.4, 5.6, 5.9, 6.2, 6.4, 6.7, 6.9, 7.2, 7.4, and 7.7mW. The sample recordings are read back by the lower-power reading laser, at about 0.5milliwatts, and are then compared for reflectivity. If the laser power is too low, the marks on the disc will be too small, and the reflected light will be of a high intensity. If the laser power is too high, the marks on the disc will be too big, and the reflected light will be of a low intensity. If the laser power is just right, the recorded marks and the areas between them will be of equal length; the light intensity will be correct.

The PCA’s Count area also has 100 (tiny) numbered partitions. Each partition is one frame long and corresponds to a partition in the Test area. After the power calibration is performed in the Test area, one of these Count area frames is recorded with random data at the optimum laser power level. The recorder keeps count of the number of frames that are not written so it knows where to perform the next test operation. CD recorders can “memorize” the signature of an optimally written mark written to, and read back from, the Count area. Plextor drives incorporate a “write strategy” to enhance OPC. This write strategy utilizes a firmware-based catalog of factory tested and certified media. Random lots of media from a variety of vendors are tested under rigorous conditions to determine manufacturing quality. Those vendors who exhibit consistent quality are added to the catalog. The response of the tested media is measured, and the optimum starting value for the power range for best performance is added to the firmware settings. When the disc to be recorded is inserted, the vendor information in the ATIP is read and compared against the vendor information in the database. If the disc is on the supported list of media, the laser power is ‘dialed’ in using the established factory value, and then the drive performs OPC. By using the ‘factory setting’ as the starting point, and a narrower range of values to write the 15 frames, the laser is fine-tuned to ensure the best possible recording quality. Of course, if the disc vendor information is not listed in the catalog, the drive still performs OPC on the disc in the normal way.

The recorder begins the write using the initial optimum recording power, while constantly monitoring the written data, or signature, as it writes to the disc. The drive adjusts the write power to maintain the optimum signature. This feature is referred to as “Running OPC” or “Dynamic OPC”. By using this “real-time” read back and on-going calibration, ROPC can correct for minute variations in dye thickness, fingerprints, dust, scratches, etc. When reading a disc in a player, error detection and correction, interleaving, or other methods of making the data correct are used to offset minor data problems, but in writing, you only have one opportunity to get it right.


#9

[B]

Disc Grading System[/B]

There are five different grades covering a wide range of performance: A, B, C, D, and F.

This feature provides a means of instantly evaluating a disc without looking at the
individual data. Here are the criteria used to determine the GRADE. These criteria are somewhat arbitrary, but reflect generally accepted practice in the industry.

GRADE A = AVE BLER over the whole disc less than 6
NO E22 ERRORS
NO E32 ERRORS

GRADE B = AVE BLER over the whole disc less than 51
NO E22 ERRORS
NO E32 ERRORS

GRADE C = AVE BLER over the whole disc less than 101
NO E32 ERRORS
LESS THAN 1000 DROPOUTS

GRADE D = AVE BLER in all ten second periods is less than 220

GRADE F = AVE BLER in any ten second period is greater than 220 or Track Loss
occurred.

Generally, a GRADE A disc represents the best possible quality of disc.
GRADE B is still an excellent disc, but not quite perfect.
GRADES A & B are good discs for any use, including the most stringent CD-ROM uses.
Most CD-ROM publishers do not like to see BLER more than 50 or any E22 or E32
errors. Therefore, GRADES C through F would be unacceptable for these users.
However, GRADES C through D are still usable discs.

Source > [COLOR=indigo]Clover QA-201 or QA-201 Instruction Manual[/COLOR]


#10

WOW BoSkin thanks for all the great info. So I guess the grade DOES matter than. How exactly does feurio know the grade? Is it based on manufact. or something else. Since I have some important information I need stored on CDRs, I guess I will not go with a CDR of value lower than Grade B, so A & B are acceptable. Now the reason I asked about if it is based on the manuf. is because if I have a spindle of one brand, and one CDR is Grade A, does that mean that all of the CDRs in that spindle are also Grade A, or is it on a CDR by CDR basis? So do I have to check all of them one by one every time I am ready to burn something? And I know this might be too picky, but If I have a CDR that is Grade (Type A) with high Beta category (A+), versus a CDR that is Grade (Type A), but with low Beta category (A-), which one is “better” than the other, or does that part not matter? Thanks.

SuperG


#11

Thanks for the great report Boskin!:bow:


#12

Indeed, thats alot of info! Thanks :slight_smile:


#13

wow, good work boSkin;)

I have a question: i got some ricoh 32x cdrs and feurio! tells me that they are C- does this mean they are of lower quality than something like CMC which has an A- grade? I have used about 50 of the ricoh cdrs and they seem very good and havent produced errors.


#14

Originally posted by cd pirate

I have a question: i got some ricoh 32x cdrs and feurio! tells me that they are C- does this mean they are of lower quality than something like CMC which has an A- grade? I have used about 50 of the ricoh cdrs and they seem very good and havent produced errors.
The same here > my Mitsui Toatsu CDRs belong to Type C, unlike CMC w Type A. Here:

ATIP info from disk - Read by Feurio 1.66
Recorder: LITE-ON - LTR-48125W
ATIP start of lead in: -02:32:19 (sector: -11419)
ATIP start of lead out: 79:59:74 (sector: 359999)
Manufacturer code: 97 27 56 - Mitsui Chemicals, Inc (Type: 6)
Disc subtype: Medium Type C, low Beta category (C-)

ATIP start of lead in: -02:33:09 (sector: -11484)
ATIP start of lead out: 79:59:74 (sector: 359999)
Manufacturer code: 97 26 66 - CMC Magnetics Corporation (Type: 6)
Disc subtype: Medium Type A, low Beta category (A-)

Nevertheless, in CD Doctor Mitsui have shown rather similar to Ritek (A) or Fujifilm, Emtec, Benq (B) results, i.e. max. C1 as 22-26.
I guess, as long as the discs don’t produce C2 errors, they are all OK for common users.

@SuperG

Feurio! tells the grade by receiving the info from the drive reading the ATIP’s content.


#15

much info is in the Feurio help also…


#16

@ BoSkin;as swedish I also would like to lay my hands on some Mitsui Toatsu CDRs,can I please have some info on how and where you got yours?/gs.


#17

Originally posted by damiandimitri
much info is in the Feurio help also…
Regarding what ?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m pretty familiar :wink: with the Feurio! stuff and just curious what you mean ? :confused:

@gene_simmons,

I got mine from a friend in NYC. Never seen Mitsui Toatsu in Stockholm, though. :smiley:


#18

a bit info about ATIP c2 errors etc. and what it means…

just pointing people at the fact info files hide sometimes nice information.

I asked a few questions about Feurio also a few years ago…till some one pointed me at the info files… Many people seem to forget to read them .


#19

@ BoSkin; I have never seen them ANYwhere in Sweden,thats why I asked you hoped that you would know from where to import them.I once asked the head office of Mitui Toatsu where I ,located in Sweden, could by theire nice cdr´s,but unfortunatly NEVER had any answers./gs


#20

Originally posted by damiandimitri
a bit info about ATIP c2 errors etc. and what it means…

just pointing people at the fact info files hide sometimes nice information.

I asked a few questions about Feurio also a few years ago…till some one pointed me at the info files… Many people seem to forget to read them .

:confused:

I’m really sorry, but in case if you’re talking about this particular info >
[COLOR=crimson]Feurio Frequently Asked Questions - Definition: C2 Errors ,
then it has no connection with the discussed topic whatsoever. [/COLOR]

:wink: