DVDRanger's Cinavia solution

vbimport

#1

DVDRanger has recently released a new version of their software, still in beta, that removes Cinavia DRM from blu ray movies. The audio produced by this process is very much degraded, and not acceptable at this time, though they are certainly working to improve this. The DVDRanger programmers have done more to remove this type of DRM than anyone else, and for that alone, they deserve some recognition.

It is, however, a solution that comes too late and does too little at this point in the game. Cinavia is required on all new players that can use blu ray discs. This much is true. But very few studios are supporting Cinavia on their movies, and the vast majority of those movies that have it are from Sony Pictures. So Cinavia removal is a great deal of effort for a very small target.

The next thing to consider is the fact that very, very few people back up blu ray movies to optical discs. Even those who do rip their movies tend to save them as digital files on hard drives rather than burning to a disc. And Cinavia only kicks in on media played from a disc.

In the vast majority of threads I see people ripping blu ray, they are converting and compressing for mobile devices and media streamers. Tablets, media players and phones don’t need Cinavia removal as part of the process of conversion.

I am one of those rare few who backs up to single layer BD-R, but I do so in order to have excellent quality copies that are smaller than the original and have all the annoying parts of blu ray playback removed. No waiting around for the player to decide it wants to play the movie, no trailers, no advertisements, no menu…I have none of these intruding on my enjoyment of the movie.

But I don’t have a single piece of hardware that recognizes the Cinavia trigger. And my HTPC plays my blu ray from the hard drives just fine. My backup discs are there only so I don’t have to re-encode to smaller sizes again if I should lose a hard drive. If prices of hard drives keep falling and the size of those drives keep increasing, backing up to optical discs may become a thing of the past even for me. Ripping as movie only may be a better, faster solution as the size of the movies becomes irrelevant on the hard drive.

So what motivation do we have to invest in software that removes Cinavia? Almost none. The window for this type of software has closed.


#2

Its my feeling that Cinavia will die a slow death, much like most of the Sony-supported “innovations”. The reason is the rather high cost in hardware/software and licensing that’s inflicted on any studio wanting to use it. Its no surprise that Verance owns all this and profits greatly from its use. A studio has to buy the hardware and software for production, plus pay hefty license fees for each title encoded and even for each disc sold. Verance controls each and every bit of that.

Its hard to say how long Sony will continue using it. We know from past behavior that they are reluctant to let go of anything. But thus far, Cinavia has failed to demonstrate any significant savings to the studios resulting from prevention of piracy.

And, as stated, its not at all difficult to get around Cinavia and still enjoy high quality lossless audio.


#3

[QUOTE=CDan;2695569]Its my feeling that Cinavia will die a slow death, much like most of the Sony-supported “innovations”. The reason is the rather high cost in hardware/software and licensing that’s inflicted on any studio wanting to use it. Its no surprise that Verance owns all this and profits greatly from its use. A studio has to buy the hardware and software for production, plus pay hefty license fees for each title encoded and even for each disc sold. Verance controls each and every bit of that.

Its hard to say how long Sony will continue using it. We know from past behavior that they are reluctant to let go of anything. But thus far, Cinavia has failed to demonstrate any significant savings to the studios resulting from prevention of piracy.

And, as stated, its not at all difficult to get around Cinavia and still enjoy high quality lossless audio.[/QUOTE]
Its almost like the " Beta-Max" fiasco. LOL;):bigsmile:


#4

[QUOTE=Kerry56;2695567] And Cinavia only kicks in on media played from a disc. [/QUOTE] How sure are you about that?

BTW I’m one of those people who rip and compress to MKV/MP4 files and play from a media player rather than playing original or copied discs, but the thought of Cinavia infection means that I will only buy discs that don’t have it, even if my current media player (Boxee Box) doesn’t have Cinavia detection built-in.


#5

[QUOTE=Kerry56;2695567] And Cinavia only kicks in on media played from a disc.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=DrageMester;2695576]How sure are you about that?

BTW I’m one of those people who rip and compress to MKV/MP4 files and play from a media player rather than playing original or copied discs, but the thought of Cinavia infection means that I will only buy discs that don’t have it, even if my current media player (Boxee Box) doesn’t have Cinavia detection built-in.[/QUOTE]

Its a certainty on players with MTK decoders, at least so far it is. Its also been reported on some others. MKV and M2TS files with Cinavia play just fine unless you put them on a BD disc. Even Sony has failed to close this loophole on many of their players. Only way to know for certain on your own player is to try it. Thus far only the PS3 has universally restricted playback.

FWIW, even when the Cinavia trigger is engaged you can usually get around it by rebooting your player and starting playback again at the point where it triggered. Lather - rinse - repeat every 20 min.


#6

I’ve seen firsthand that Cinavia can show up from playing mkv and avi files on a dvd in a blu ray player. So, files on either type of optical media can trigger it.

I’ve been following the subject on several different forums, and I haven’t seen evidence of Cinavia in a media player with no optical drive, or from thumbdrives or external hard drives.

The PS3 I’m less certain about.

Edit #2: Playing a ripped blu ray from a hard drive, using a Cinavia infected [B]software[/B] player [B]does[/B] give you the warning at the 20 minute mark! I just tried this with TMT6, and got the warning message.
Previously, when playing a file and testing with the PowerDVD trial, I didn’t get Cinavia to interrupt the audio unless it was on a disc. Wonder if that was just an odd result with that particular software?

Edit #3: Confirmed on WinDVD 11.5 trial. It won’t play blu ray from the hard drive, but the m2ts file is stopped at the 20 minute mark. The software players are fubared.

Glad I have a version of TMT5 without Cinavia. Though you could always use VLC or Media Player Classic Home Cinema.


#7

I hope DVDRanger stays out of this thread .
I have a question for the members that posted in this thread.
According to DVDRanger I was wrong on all points in the other thread.

What I would like to know is wouldn’t the real solution be a hardware/firmware one if it was legal ?
By that I mean if a BD drive or player wasn’t required to detect Cinavia .
That a copy from it wouldn’t have the Cinavia any longer .
Or two standalones .Neither with any Cinavia detection . So the out on one would be recordable to the in on the other .

Also I don’t think a software solution is possible .
Meaning that some data will always be removed with the Cinavia.
When this is done there will always be a quality loss.
So far this has been a major quality loss.
I don’t see this changing to any greatly improved degree.
Do any of you ?


#8

[QUOTE=cholla;2695601]
What I would like to know is wouldn’t the real solution be a hardware/firmware one if it was legal ?
By that I mean if a BD drive or player wasn’t required to detect Cinavia .
That a copy from it wouldn’t have the Cinavia any longer .
Or two standalones .Neither with any Cinavia detection . So the out on one would be recordable to the in on the other .
[/QUOTE]

If the ultimate goal is to just ignore Cinavia, just playing it on hardware or with software that ignores it would be fine. That’s what people do when they make backups of their BD material right now. If you could get the hardware to stop caring about the Cinavia, that would be nice, and would be a usable solution…but that’s roughly equivalent to getting a machine that ignores it in the beginning. It’s still there.

Duplicating material with any semblance of the original audio won’t get rid of it (even if recording with a microphone); if, at some point down the chain, something was searching for the Cinavia watermark, it would still be there and you would still have issues. This is the part that people want to get around (and, as you note, it would be impossible to get around this without altering the source material in a lossy format).

So for now, it’s easier to find something that ignores Cinavia.


#9

There are many examples of hardware that gets Cinavia enabled with firmware alone. This would lead one to believe that a hacked firmware could disable it once again.

This attack vector doesn’t seem to be on anyone’s radar, but I don’t know why, other than the fact that it would be a disjointed affair, with so many different players you would have to be able to adjust. The other part I haven’t heard about is the protection on the firmware. Are they all encrypted?


#10

I am pretty sure Sony Encrypts but not the others. Be nice if there was a jailbreak so to speak. Man made so man can break.


#11

Yes, cholla, that is exactly what I was referring to in the other thread, that is… either a firmware fix for a blu-ray player or a hardware modifying of the blu-ray player.

Since those 2 options are possible, that seems to be the best route for the distant future.

I really don’t think this watermark will ever be defeated since it is transfered even if someone is recording from handheld,it is still in the signal.
We all know how watermarks alter video permanently and that removing it without trace is almost impossible.

Really in this point in time, only blu-ray (hardware) players as well as licensed blu-ray media players are affected.
And then one must qualify which hardware players…the older models ones and not so older ones (but not current generation since early last year).
There are a group of players that can be made to react to the watermark if they receive a firmware update.
Then I think there are older players that can’t be updated even with firmware…though I don’t know this for certain.

So if someone wants to not be affected by the watermark can simple use freeware software media player (which likely can’t access the menu (movie only type playback)
or get an older hardware blu-ray player…I suppose there are still plenty out there.

Right now, I don’t see any reason for anyone to fret much about this watermark since there are many options out there to get around it…and it isn’t on all movies…at least not for now…and likely won’t be pushed on all movies for some time to come.


#12

[QUOTE=Steve33;2695606]Yes, cholla, that is exactly what I was referring to in the other thread, that is… either a firmware fix for a blu-ray player or a hardware modifying of the blu-ray player…[/QUOTE]

Most likely it is possible, but the problem is that most BD makers use different decoders and architecture, making such hacks unique for each one. For example, hardware mods for Mediatek based players are common where region free is the desired result. Cinavia is decoded in the main decoder chipset, and that’s where a mod has to happen. Region free mods accomplish this by inserting a purpose built chip between the disc drive and decoder.

Bottom line is that Cinavia just isn’t enough of a problem to warrant similar R&D efforts and expense at this point. Firmware hacks are also possible, but even more problematic (read impossible) when multiple platforms are involved.


#13

Yes, but the point being, it may be possible to change either hardware and/or firmware on a given “friendly” blu-ray player sometime in the future.

This would be potentially easier than completely removing the watermark without damaging the audio, if I were making a bet.

Regardless…trying to defeat the watermark by methods used in the past likely won’t work unless someone were to know its exact specifications…even then it is not guaranteed.

We do agree it isn’t a problem big enough to fool with for now.

Between controlling hardware production and an implanted scheme, they have the advantage.


#14

By the way, if anyone wants to hear some examples of the audio before and after using the Cinex module, I posted them over at videohelp.com where they have a very generous size limit on uploads.

Link.


#15

It would be interesting to know if you converted it to a Blu-ray if the Cinavia kicks in as I’m pretty sure TMT only detects Cinavia when it’s in Blu-ray format as that’s the only format they are required to detect it under


#16

[QUOTE=Adbear;2695656]It would be interesting to know if you converted it to a Blu-ray if the Cinavia kicks in as I’m pretty sure TMT only detects Cinavia when it’s in Blu-ray format as that’s the only format they are required to detect it under[/QUOTE]
I converted to an mkv file. TMT 6 stopped playback of the audio at the 20 minute mark, just as it did with the blu ray version. This was playing from the hard drive, not on an optical disc.


#17

I downloaded both files from videohelp.com .
The first one sounds good.
The one that the Cinex module was used on sounds terrible.
Two thumbs down from me & a couple of big toes too.


#18

I’m glad to see you got the same high pitched static on AC3 that I did.
Thanks to your post I have now finally heard how poor the output is and shan’t be bothering with any more testing


#19

Ouch! Their solution is pretty rough. But I do give them some credit for trying.

Here’s my solution vs theirs:

Audacity Cinavia removal Method:

 http://www.sendspace.com/file/bqs096 

CinEX Cinavia Removal:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/hx8o3p 

:slight_smile:


#20

@ Macrovision3500 , The links only take me to the site . It has the file but when I click wants to install the sites downloader. I don’t want it .
It also gets a couple of warnings from Avast.

So I won’t be listening to them.

You might try to put them on videohelp.com like Kerry did with his.