Dvd2dvd-r guide

vbimport

#1

I’ve finally finished my dvd2dvdr guide
www.mrbass.org/dvd2dvdr

It was a rough draft for a couple of days. I spent about a week and a half goofing around with NTSC DVDs and IFOEDIT. It’s hopeless.

Anyway it’s good for main movie only using CCE. PAL users can do subtitles and mux and authoring is automatically done with IFOEDIT.

NTSC currently subtitles create compile errors in Scenarist. You must use Scenarist NT to mux/author dvd video files.

Mod: move to approriate forum if this isn’t it. It’s not ‘transcoding’ but rather ‘encoding’ but it’s kinda like a one-click or simple to use program. IC7 I believe isn’t transcoding either.


#2

I want some readers’ opinions here.

What are the justifications for doing things the hard way, rather than use programs such as DVD2One, Instant Copy, et al?

Is there more quality to be obtained, and, if so, can it be discerned while viewing a movie on a good TV at normal viewing distances? I can see that you would have more control, but so what? I’d have more control if I took my own appendix out, but I’d rather leave it to a surgeon and in particular an anaesthetist!

Do we have any real evidence on the way InstantCopy works? Does it transcode or re-encode? What are the pros and cons of each method.

Lets get this stirred up gang, and away from the ‘why can’t I have coffee cup holders in the next version’ type of posting.

The forum is open… You can be as contentious as you like, but you have to back up your contention with facts/evidence. Mere opinions come cheaper by the dozen. :smiley:

-Pete


#3

dunno how much freedom of speech you have on this forum but I’ll give it a go

I laugh at people when they say DVD2One rocks on all the forums I visit

for me the main thing that rocks about DVD2One is the speed and simplicity (compliments to the chef :slight_smile: ), but you pay for it dearly due to the lack of 1:1 features and quality of the video image and I don’t need simplicity of the BIG RED BUTTON

I’m sorry to inform all you people that think the quality is better than other apps or think it’s comparable to the original that truthfully it ain’t (how much depends on the circumstances). Even more puzzling are the people who claim the copy is the same as the original when doing a 1:1, i.e. 7Gb into 4.37Gb

the quality of the backup is all down to mostly the following

  1. Percentage of reduction from Original Video-only to the size of Backup Video-Only

  2. the Setup used to view the backup

  3. the viewers perception of quality

now all of the three above can be so varying and this is why you get such a variation of opinion

someone with a reduction to say 80% using an average setup and an average eye for quality will swear on their life they cannot see a difference and truthfully they probably can’t, yet another user with a high quality setup and a very fussy eye for quality watching the same backed up DVD will disagree with them

I am the latter, the guy with a better than average setup and a good eye for quality but I do accept other people’s opinion as they will be seeing a different picture even though the data coming from the DVD is the same, the eventual image displayed can differ greatly

when you start going lower than 80% then the quality loss increases and the lower you go the more it’s affected. Over 80% it’s ever so slight but still visible on certain systems upto a certain point during normal playback (see my sig for basic quality comaprision)

when you walk into an electrical store do all the TV’s produce the same quality image?. Of course they don’t and that’s why you will get differences of opinion even if you look at the same image due to the equipment being used to show that image. If they all dipslayed the same image people would buy the cheapest. People can even argue about which TV displays the best image in a store, it’s human nature :slight_smile:

Regarding the quality of the backed up image (my biggest concern when backing up a DVD, forget processing speed and simplicitywe all know that CCE is the Daddy of quality, IC is 2nd and DVDShrink is ever so slightly better than DVD2One/DVD95Copy. Some will disagree but I think the guys who have the setups and eyes will agree

DVD2One is actually the worst option for quality overall if that is the most important factor (which it is for me) cos you can only distribute the reduction uniformly so this is how DVD95Copy can produce better quality Movie Titles due to th eability to reduce Menu/Extras independently

as for Speed, only DVDShrink can compete with DVD2One but again it has the ability to independently reduce titles. In Re-Author mode you can crop the end credits therefore increasing the available space for the main movie video resulting in even better quality. Can I ask why people are that fussed about speed?. How many backups do you need to do in a day?. You do not have to sit and stare at the progress bar and you can still use your PC even if you do have to sit there

finally Features, another department that DVD2One suffers. Movie-Only is a great feature but that’s about it. IC and DVD95Copy don’t offer this in the same manner but it’s is possible

but for 1:1 using DVD2One then quality suffers and the bigger the reduction the greater the suffering

people like simplicity and ain’t that fussed about quality and maybe DVD2One does rock for them and if they are happy then that’s fine cos that’s the most important factor

I guess I will get a lot of disagreements cos this is probably like the poking a stick into a wasp’s nest but I do feel some will agree with most of what I’ve said

and if you do, I respect you and if you don’t you then that’s another story

I was gonna post this elsewhere but saw this thread so thought it best here. I will just point other threads to my comments instead

I haven’t got DVD2One but a friend has and I’ve seen it in action quite a few times and I have had disagreements with him regarding it, but when he came round my house, he quickly changed his views :slight_smile:

I commend the makers of DVD2One but I do wish the user’s would be more open minded to it’s overall abilities and how it is when compared to other apps

quite simple, no one app Rocks as they all beat each other in certain aspects and some more than others and whatever suits the user in those aspects then they will use that app but that does not mean the program ROCKS

I’m open minded and use the appropiate app for projects, and sadly at the moment DVD2One offers me nothing apart from speed as all the others do just fine in all other areas. I even use 2 or 3 together to get the best possible backup cos I ain’t fussed about processing speed in any way at all but I’m fussed about my backups :slight_smile:

mostly I use IC for the main title, then run it all through DVD95Copy to reduce menu/extras and end up with 4.37Gb with a movie of high quality and decent menu/extras. From inserting DVD to getting backup it takes about 15-20 usertime and 2-3 hours processing deppending on size but it’s much better quality than any other simple backup tool could ever offer at the minute for the quality fussier of users :bigsmile:


#4

Thanks Mack!
And if you stir up a wasps’ nest, then let the wasps have the facts handy, not just the vituperative.

Quality is a personal thing. Look how many people are perfectly happy with VHS. No, look how many aren’t aware of any difference! - and that’s VHS, not Super VHS.

I remember (as a youngster;) ) in the early days of colour television, when the convergence was adjusted at the set, rather than during manufacturing as it is now, seeing at friends’ and neighbours’ houses misconvergence of up to half an inch. Someone’s face would have a red band all down one edge. It looked appalling. And if I pointed it out, they’d climb out of their chairs and go and press their noses to the screen, shrug and sit down again. It was fine to them…

None of the transcoding/encoding methods leave you with the quality of the original, but some people can’t tell. And here we get into the realm of metaphysics and the sound of one hand clapping:)

One thing I do find surprising is the number of posts from people looking for this feature and that feature to make their lives complete, and nearly always what they’re looking for is to be found in InstantCopy. Yet hardly anyone appears to use it. Curious.

-Pete


#5

Originally posted by Peter McCall
[B]Thanks Mack!
And if you stir up a wasps’ nest, then let the wasps have the facts handy, not just the vituperative.

Quality is a personal thing. Look how many people are perfectly happy with VHS. No, look how many aren’t aware of any difference! - and that’s VHS, not Super VHS.
LOL, guess who’s got a S-VHS video :slight_smile:

Originally posted by Peter McCall I remember (as a youngster;) ) in the early days of colour television, when the convergence was adjusted at the set, rather than during manufacturing as it is now, seeing at friends and neighbours houses misconvergence of up to half an inch. Someone’s face would have a red band all down one edge. It looked appalling. And if I pointed it out, they’d climb out of their chairs and go and press their noses to the screen, shrug and sit down again. It was fine to them…
LOL again, guess who’s just had his TV replaced Tuesday cos the convergence was ever so slighly out but not really noticable from viewing distance (story about replacement is HERE & HERE)

Originally posted by Peter McCall None of the transcoding/encoding methods leave you with the quality of the original, but some people can’t tell. And here we get into the realm of metaphysics and the sound of one hand clapping:)

One thing I do find surprising is the number of posts from people looking for this feature and that feature to make their lives complete, and nearly always what they’re looking for is to be found in InstantCopy. Yet hardly anyone appears to use it. Curious.
I feel it’s cos people cannot fully use IC to it’s true potential due to its sizing issue (especially movie only 2.35:1), but I find the sizing issue simple to overcome doing 1:1 backups with a few minutes user input and so do a few others but some don’t use it cos they like the BIG RED BUTTON option and ain’t fussed about quality/don’t have the means to appreciate it fully :bigsmile:

yet when I ask friends and relatives which they prefer, they always opt for the better quality. It’s the same with most things, take people’s cars for example. I could get a Ford Fiesta and be like the average Joe Bloggs happy with his car or I could put that little extra in and get a nice sporty softop or use the same money and get a slighty older sports car. Most would prefer the softop but the Fiesta is more practical for them and that’s the users own decision

whatever suits you best, but remember what you choose may not be the best overall but if it suits your needs and keeps you happy then you cannot argue with that can you

I hate it when people use an app and whinge about others they have tried. I don’t use DVD2One so I don’t whinge about it but I will discuss on most occasions why I don’t use it in greater detail than just saying ‘IT SUCKS!’. I don’t use it cos it won’t satisfy my current demands but some users are so narrow minded it’s beyond belief, and I’m not just talking about DVD2One users as all the backup methods have their group of Diehards :stuck_out_tongue:


#6

i use tmpgenc…mainconcept encoder
because, personaly, i am not always content with the quality of transcoding…seems to get blurry or something when you watch it

but my friends, on the other hand, don’t complain about it…
it is just a matter of what you are used to before


#7

I used CCE but after using IC I changed over due to the simplicity of rebuilding a DVD using IC compared to reauthoring it manually

for the time/effort saved then for me this is worth the ever so slight inferior quality

If the movie is rather large but still a single PGC then I will on occasion use CCE but very rarely now

if Pinnacle implement a 2-pass or more resulting in better quality and 4.37Gb then that woul dbe the killer app for the quality freaks

I doubt they will but maybe they just might. If not another app will come onto the market but hopefully they will realise that speed is not an issue for quite a few people and quality is

even if they implemented an option for the quality engine to use that would determine speed that that would satify all users

basically a merged program giving the lowest quality option of DVD2One and the highest of say CCE with options inbetween using some sort of slider etc

speed has already been done so why fuss about it?, but 1:1 with title removal with high quality encoding regardless of whether it takes 20 mins or not ain’t!

IC is the nearest thing to that dream tool but I doubt it will improve on the great potential it has :(, so hopefully another tool will eventually take that place of being the all in one encoder backup tool

I thought DVDXCopy Xpress Platinum was gonna be that tool as it was stated it was an encoder, but judging by the speed of DVDXCopy Xpress I very much doubt it :rolleyes:

one day maybe :cool:


#8

I’ll have to agree that DVD2One (DVD2OneX in my case) is a much needed tool, and I’m glad it exists, however I’ll stick with my tried and true method until I can really put DVD2One through its paces… a half hour at a time mind you :wink:

I primarily run OSX, but as for MPEG2 encoders, especially those that can accept MPEG2 as input, the Mac has no equal to TMPEnc or CCE. The MJPEG Tools MPEG2Enc encoder blows chunks in comparison to TMPGEnc.

Currently my path runs something like this:

OSX: OSex to rip streams (Similar to SmartRipper)
PC: DVD2AVI to create a project file
PC: TMPGEnc, 2pass VBR (Mostly because I can nail the final disc size to within a few MB of 4.53GB)
OSX: DVDStudio Pro (Similar to Spruce-Up)
OSX: Toast Titanium

With all that, the output is quite acceptable as viewed on a Mits 65", W/progressive scan DVD.

The only gripe I have is it appears TMPGEnc isn’t setting the progressive frame and Progressive Sequence flags.


#9

the quality of all the transcoding tools is just to bad, no matter if dvd2one or ic7. i tried with many dvd (no, not veyr short ones, but whats the use if i cannot use it for all dvds ?) and i can easily see block artefacts on my tv.
extremly horrible with conan, the barbar.
maybe its good enough if you use movie only or a short movie or if you strip all audio tracks so the reduction is not very high.
but the point is that i can get BETTER quality WITH 2 sound tracks and all extras by using cce or tmpeg as if i use movie only and only 1 sound track in dvd2one.

usually i use dvd2one to reduce the complete dvd and then i replace the main movie with a cce/tmpeg reencode.


#10

the thing is the time and cost involved in using CCE etc for full 1:1 backups you may aswell buy another copy of the DVD if quality is of that importance

a multiple PGC DVD is not exactly the easiest to backup and the user time needed is not the normal amount. Along with the amazing price of a LEGITIMATE authoring tool that is capable of rebuilding these DVD’s then cost wise it is not worth it if you include all these factors.

If you say that IC quality is bad then you must be using it at levels of less than 70% and have a very high demand for quality

the most puzzling thing about people doing 1:1 backups requiring high quality and they would rather use the longer/complicated/expensive method is that if quality is such an issue why squash it all onto one DVD even using CCE?
when splitting is by far the better quality option? (not splitting movie but movie and extras!). Star Wars AOTC/Spiderman etc do this with main movie on one DVD and extras on 2nd DVD, so why not do the same with a single DVD with movie/extras on 1 DVD and just create a 2 DVD set?

why not still use IC and simply just use another blank for less than $1/£1 and put the menu/main movie on one DVD and menu/extras on another as a much cheaper simpler solution and actually get better quality at the same time cos on a few occasions the main movie will be 100% aswell (or very high) as the extras being 100% nearly all the time :D.

If you need high quality backups 24/7 then maybe this is the way to go, but if like me you are watching casually and ain’t fussed about having 100% quality and 90% will do then IC is the one. On special occasions I will just put on the white rubber gloves and pull out the original cos it’s there to be played not shrinkwrapped and stored!

by the way IC is not a transcoding tool yet people always compare it with DVD2One etc as to it’s workings

anything over 80% comparing the quality between IC/CCE, you are hard pushed to notice the difference during normal playback even on the best of setups so again I’m puzzled as to why people use CCE still

but everyone has their opinions and choices :bow:


#11

I bought a copy of everything out there and like family members you love them for different reasons. My final solution is to never buy a TV larger than 27" or a new pair of glasses!

Seriously though, there are tradeoffs in time or quality that are highly subjective. You can also get off so much on the guides and techniques that you run out of time to enjoy the movies. I’m always amazed at the brilliant work of MackemX, mrbass, 2Cool and others more than the movies I’ve seen lately. The perfect copy is secondary to the creation process. Otherwise all these experiments would be a drag (in my opinion).


#12

Gee, where do I start.

I go to the theatre to watch a movie, I buy a DVD to watch a movie for entertainment. I have absolutely no desire to see any of the extras or listen to some Director rambling on every move in the movie. Others may have opposite views.

So when it comes time to backup my DVD collection, I’m interested in the Movie only and the closest quality I can get to the original. I might as well record it to VHS tape if I want just a simple copy/backup. As the movie length varies and the bitrate used also varies on commercial dvd’s, the quality of creating a movie only backup varies using the likes of DVD2ONE, DVD Shrink, IC7, etc, etc for each different dvd. Some require very little “compression” while some requires a lot resulting in grainy & blocking sections throughout the movie.

I personly can see the difference of these All-in-one encodes/transcodes on my TV compared to the original, hence the only solution for me is to use CCE to encode ALL my dvd’s. I always end up with the best possible backup that way and consistant in every backup. Even some of these backups are noticibly different from the original but the differences are very small indead and I’m still unable to find a better solution. Backup to 2 dvd’s is not a solution to me as it defeats the whole dvd experience.

Time is of little concern to me really, and encoding time of 3.5 to 4hr for me, 15min to author and 30min to burn. I can only assume time is a concern to others in that most people are NOT backing up their collecting but rather mass copying of the local Video Hire store or their friends collection and/or in the selling/trading market. For these people, the quickest solution is the best and absolute quality is of no concern to them. As long as its a bit better than VHS quality, then thats close enough.

As far as I’m concerned, if your going to go to the trouble of backing up your collection then you might as well do it the absolute best you can, anything less is just a waist of time.


#13

The repeating theme in these posts is that of ‘quality’.
In my time I’ve seen this same discussion take place many times over audio (Hi Fi) and sharpness (photography).
In the latter case, people would argue about what was sharp and what wasn’t. I’ve seen competition entries that screamed ‘blurred’, but the entrants thought they were just fine. I’ve also seen entries marked down for unsharpness that were, to my eyes anyway, as sharp as a tack.

The technical definition - used in determining depth of field - refers to a ‘circle of confusion’ (an apt name!). This relies on the inability of the human eye to distinguish between a true dot and an arbitrarily small circle (a dot turns into a circle as it goes out of focus). In our discusions here, you might substitute compression artefacts…

Similarly with Hi Fi: the audiophile gets hot under the collar over some blemish in the sound that offends his bat-like ears, but to which you and I would be completely oblivious. They would buy records with no music, just heavily overcut tracks designed to torture their system, and then sit back with a smirk if the fabulously expensive pickup didn’t leap six inches into the air as a result. They weren’t listening to music, they were listening for faults…
I’ve even seen them replace the plastic screws holding the the cartridge to the tone arm with metal ones and then declare the improvement in quality ‘stunning’.

Perhaps to them, but not to me.

And it’s the same with DVD. Don’t let’s lose sight of the objective, which is simply to watch a movie. That’s it. It’s not a cure for cancer. It won’t make you more attractive to the opposite sex. It’s just a movie.

We can watch it as such or, like the Hi Fi fan, we can look for faults. We can go out and find the longest film in the world, transcode it and then sit, noses pressed to a very large screen , looking for artefacts. Artefacts that would be to all intents and purposes invisible under normal viewing conditions - especially if the film is interesting, too:D

As has been said elsewhere, if you are really and truly looking for uncompromised quality in relation to the original, you should perhaps buy the original (or buy two originals!;)) because these processes - even the much vaunted CCE - will always deliver a lesser result.

It isn’t the software we should be examining, but our own motives and requirements.

-Pete


#14

Originally posted by ChickenMan
I go to the theatre to watch a movie, I buy a DVD to watch a movie for entertainment. I have absolutely no desire to see any of the extras or listen to some Director rambling on every move in the movie. Others may have opposite views.
of course you goto a theatre to watch the movie, but some DVD’s do actually include rather interesting audio/extras that I chose to keep as I may just watch them more than once and don’t wanna keep pulling the original out to watch them

I normally leave the directors/actors comments out cos I’ll just play the original cos maybe you may just watch it once. An example is the Red Dwarf Series I’ve just watched, it’s sometimes funnier than the actual soundtrack :D. I trust myself to be able to take great care with the DVD on occasions to play such things :slight_smile:

Originally posted by ChickenMan So when it comes time to backup my DVD collection, I’m interested in the Movie only and the closest quality I can get to the original. I might as well record it to VHS tape if I want just a simple copy/backup. As the movie length varies and the bitrate used also varies on commercial dvd’s, the quality of creating a movie only backup varies using the likes of DVD2ONE, DVD Shrink, IC7, etc, etc for each different dvd. Some require very little “compression” while some requires a lot resulting in grainy & blocking sections throughout the movie.
I personly can see the difference of these All-in-one encodes/transcodes on my TV compared to the original, hence the only solution for me is to use CCE to encode ALL my dvd’s. I always end up with the best possible backup that way and consistant in every backup. Even some of these backups are noticibly different from the original but the differences are very small indead and I’m still unable to find a better solution. Backup to 2 dvd’s is not a solution to me as it defeats the whole dvd experience.

Time is of little concern to me really, and encoding time of 3.5 to 4hr for me, 15min to author and 30min to burn. I can only assume time is a concern to others in that most people are NOT backing up their collecting but rather mass copying of the local Video Hire store or their friends collection and/or in the selling/trading market. For these people, the quickest solution is the best and absolute quality is of no concern to them. As long as its a bit better than VHS quality, then thats close enough.

As far as I’m concerned, if your going to go to the trouble of backing up your collection then you might as well do it the absolute best you can, anything less is just a waist of time

I’ll pass on quality issue as that is preferencal and everyone does it what suits them but what the diehard CCE users must understand is that 90% of people will probably not have the means to use the CCE route anyway. Even though it seems so easy for the experienced user with the tools for the job for an average Joe Bloggs in is just not an viable option :slight_smile:

and even worse is ASSuming a user who doesn’t use the more complicated/expensive/longer CCE option as a pirate who copies video rentals. Sadly that is a typical example of narrow mindedness at the other end of the DVD Backup world just like I was saying people about users who say DVD2One/DVDShrink rocks and show their narrow mindedness

You wouldn’t expect a frail old Granny with minimal computer knowledge to use CCE so she would probably use DVD2One/DVDShrink and be more than happy with the results on her less than average setup and not so sharp eyes, but with that comment you are accusing her of being a pirate :Z

It ruffles my feathers when people who think that the app they use is the one everyone else should use and if they don’t they are just wasting their time etc

basically you have the DVD2One etc users in the North Pole, the CCE etc users on the South Pole and the IC users on the equator

using mostly IC I’m roughly around the eqautor but I ain’t afraid of expeditions to the North and South Poles depending on circumstances but I do feel some users cannot understand why others live where they live or don’t travel, in other words narrow mindedness :stuck_out_tongue:


#15

Originally posted by jzaman
[B]I bought a copy of everything out there and like family members you love them for different reasons. My final solution is to never buy a TV larger than 27" or a new pair of glasses!

Seriously though, there are tradeoffs in time or quality that are highly subjective. You can also get off so much on the guides and techniques that you run out of time to enjoy the movies. I’m always amazed at the brilliant work of MackemX, mrbass, 2Cool and others more than the movies I’ve seen lately. The perfect copy is secondary to the creation process. Otherwise all these experiments would be a drag (in my opinion). [/B]
that’s exactlly why I and other’s write the guides or offer hints and tips cos although people may actually require more quality their setup, methods and knowledge do not allow it

so passing on our knowledge in the simplest of terms may just allow that frail old Granny to maybe have a wider choice of apps and methods to use and get more for her effort :smiley:


#16

@Peter McCall

that’s exactly it, some users have higher demand than others and will use/buy whatever satifies their needs but as long as people appreciate other people’s opinions and choices than that is fine

it’s the same with absolutely everything not just computers/DVD’s/photo’s etc.

I’m fussy about most things and normally do a bit of research before buying stuff I want to appreciate or require, whereas some just buy the 1st thing they see

that’s human nature for you, people value things so differently and in the majority of cases put as much time/effort/expense into it that is required to meet those values


#17

Originally posted by MackemX
You wouldn’t expect a frail old Granny with minimal computer knowledge to use CCE so she would probably use DVD2One/DVDShrink and be more than happy with the results on her less than average setup and not so sharp eyes, but with that comment you are accusing her of being a pirate :Z

I think you totaly lost sight of what I was saying, but hey…

It ruffles my feathers when people who think that the app they use is the one everyone else should use and if they don’t they are just wasting their time etc

I coulnt agree more, jusy go to any forum about any subject and guess what you will see. Even read this thead again.

[/COMMENT]


#18

I think chickenman has my same DNA as me. I also am main movie only person and the longest I could stand listening to a director’s comments was about 20 seconds before I could take no more.

Anyway the three tools I use now are dvdtoolbox, dvdshrink level 1 or 2…but not level 2 if it’s not about say 4.10GB or so. I might just only do level 1 with dvdshrink from now on. And lastly dvd2dvd-r.

Future things I’ll be looking into is dvd2svcd for dvd backups if subtitles go exported. Chapters are exported in Maestro already. And of course I’ll give the doitfast4u, docce4u, reauthorist, scenarist another try when reauthorist final is released which should make it quite simple. Even the ddrs method I’ll still be doing main movie only most likely.


#19

Originally posted by MackemX
[B]
If you say that IC quality is bad then you must be using it at levels of less than 70% and have a very high demand for quality

i tried it with t2 ultimate edition with 2x 448kbit ac3.
surely not the easiest thing to encode. :slight_smile: ic was better than dvd2one but not that much. and its amazing what tmpeg can make with such low bitrates.


#20

I’ve got just one simple question for you people :

If quality means everything to you then why re-encode or transcale your dvd’s?? Personally I always split DVD9’s into two DVD5’s.

I’m very confident that in the future we will be able to join the two dvd5’s back together into 1 dvd9 (or blue-ray disc or something)

…just my 2 eurocents…

greets,
Remco