DVD-Ranger CinEx module beta tested – beats Cinavia

[DoMiN8ToR]

We've just posted the following news: DVD-Ranger CinEx module beta tested – beats Cinavia[newsimage]http://static.myce.com//images_posts/2012/09/DVDRanger_logo.png[/newsimage]

DVD-Ranger has shown us a working version of their Cinavia module CinEx. Using this module it's possible to backup Blu-ray discs that are protected with the audio watermarking technology Cinavia.

            Read the full article here: [http://www.myce.com/news/dvd-ranger-cinex-module-beta-tested-beats-cinavia-68353/](http://www.myce.com/news/dvd-ranger-cinex-module-beta-tested-beats-cinavia-68353/)

            Please note that the reactions from the complete site will be synched below.

[CDan]

Its impossible to get rid of Cinavia watermarks without decimating the audio quality. The best you can hope for is a lossy, compressed audio.

[readmetoo]

Yep the world at one time was thought to be flat and we didn’t go to moon , Planes cant fly, the sound barrier couldn’t be broken

Bold statement can’t be done it is impossible. Just think of all the geeks out there if they had just said It’s impossible , what never could have been done!

[Steve33]

Just curious, is this using a similar method that the Macrovision3500 guy posted not too long ago?
His messes up the audio.

If so, I could have developed a method before now…

His messes up the audio.

[CDan]

[QUOTE=readmetoo;2695383]Yep the world at one time was thought to be flat and we didn’t go to moon , Planes cant fly, the sound barrier couldn’t be broken

Bold statement can’t be done it is impossible. Just think of all the geeks out there if they had just said It’s impossible , what never could have been done![/QUOTE]

If you actually understand how Cinavia watermarks work, you’d know that it can’t be removed without damaging the audio. It’s the same as a video watermark - you can’t remove it without removing the image itself.

[ChristineBCW]

This always reminds me of my favorite American poem… or at least, the last verse.

[I]“Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;
The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,
And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;
But there is no joy in Mudville…”[/I]

[alan1476]

[QUOTE=ChristineBCW;2695392]This always reminds me of my favorite American poem… or at least, the last verse.

[I]“Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright;[/I]
[I]The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light,[/I]
[I]And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout;[/I]
[I]But there is no joy in Mudville…”[/I][/QUOTE]
I heard that poem first hand in 1888 LOL.

[TSJnachos117]

The audio will probably be messed up at least to some extent. However, using a program like DVD-Ranger, it may eventually become possible to minimize the loss of quality, possibly even leaving the portions of audio that don’t have Cinivia unmodified (that is, no de/recompression). Of course, there will always be quality loss when removing Cinivia, even with the best removal methods possible.

If you really want to get rid of Cinivia, demand a refund of any movie you purchase that has this protection. If enough people do it, maybe Hollywood will finally get the hint. Of course, that’s unlikely to happen, as it would require those who use the internet to rot their brains on Youtube cat vids to pay attention to the issues around them.

[DrageMester]

[QUOTE=alan1476;2695394]I heard that poem first hand in 1888 LOL.[/QUOTE] Back when you were only (…counting on fingers…) 412 years old, right?

[CDan]

[QUOTE=TSJnachos117;2695397]The audio will probably be messed up at least to some extent. However, using a program like DVD-Ranger, it may eventually become possible to minimize the loss of quality, possibly even leaving the portions of audio that don’t have Cinivia unmodified (that is, no de/recompression). Of course, there will always be quality loss when removing Cinivia, even with the best removal methods possible.

If you really want to get rid of Cinivia, demand a refund of any movie you purchase that has this protection. If enough people do it, maybe Hollywood will finally get the hint. Of course, that’s unlikely to happen, as it would require those who use the internet to rot their brains on Youtube cat vids to pay attention to the issues around them.[/QUOTE]

We’re only talking about Sony Studios here. No body else is [I]currently[/I] using Cinavia.

However, the watermark is present in the entire movie in any passages that have adequate S/N ratio to hide it. These re-encoding “solutions” are not detecting the watermark, or modifying it in any way. They simply obliterate it by compressing the audio - and the watermark with it.

[Steve33]

I haven’t seen any writeup where anyone actually knows anything about the watermark except what is posted officially…that is from the company that designed it.

CDan is correct, no devs. have seriously looked at the watermark hence we have no clue what it looks like.

We can assume it is in the audible hearing range since someone (idiot) could record a movie with a handheld…in places where there are stern warnings about the consequences…and the watermark would be in the recorded file.

Mics on handhelds do not have that dynamic of a range.

Perhaps one day there will be a cure but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
Anyway, as it stands now, this watermark is more or less a nuisance since there are numerous ways to play a m2ts file without a BD player.

Any serious defeat of this watermark should be directed toward either hardware modification or a firmware mod, IMO.

I write this, sung to the tune of and replacing the lyrics of “blue skies”.

[CDan]

[QUOTE=Steve33;2695414]I haven’t seen any writeup where anyone actually knows anything about the watermark except what is posted officially…that is from the company that designed it.

CDan is correct, no devs. have seriously looked at the watermark hence we have no clue what it looks like.

[/QUOTE]

The info is available in white papers released by Verance. The watermark is actually created by altering the S/N ratio, which creates a “noise pulse”. These pulses are strung together to create simple binary code, I forget how many bits but not many. Anyhow, that code contains the info needed for the decoder to identify the audio’s source and of course the trigger for the protection. So in theory, audio from different sources might only trigger the protection in specific playback scenarios. The watermark is repeated throughout the movie in any area where the S/N ratio is sufficient to mask it from hearing - ie: louder parts. If it was placed in a silent part of the audio and you have your gear cranked up, you might hear the subtle pulsing of the noise level. The code is repeated over and over throughout the movie, so eventually it always gets picked up by the decoder. If you play the same protected audio over and over, you may find it triggers at slightly different points in the program each time, this is why.

What the conversion software is doing is simply compressing the audio - and the noise floor is raised which masks the watermark. Its not rocket science, you simply raise the noise floor or distort the audio till the decoder can no longer pick up the watermark. Brilliant.

[Steve33]

I see where some speak of Phase shifts in the watermark.

Audio conversion alone will not mask the watermark.

It appears the audio needs to be screwed up fairly badly to keep the chip from picking it up watermark.

[DoMiN8ToR]

What’s even worse (I wrote this in this article too: http://www.myce.com/article/cinavia-the-copy-protection-that-doesnt-want-to-be-silenced-68001/) that they can update the protection when it gets hacked too often and that they have other tricks that should make it hard to make a general circumvention method.

Still DVDFab and AnyDVD have found ways of dealing with it without audio degradation…

[ChristineBCW]

Sony & Friends might be considering an eventual split so that Audio and Video in movies are shipped separately. Surely, THIS will stop all piracy! They could, say, ship movies only in giant tin packages, big circular things… maybe use some kind of celluloidal strip or something, and isolate the picture into separate, chopped up photo-like cells. String them together in mile-long pieces of that celluloidal medium.

Then, issue the audio on some vinyl-esque substance - a big flat disk, perhaps.

You’d need to buy all this equipment, including giant cavernous rooms that could seat 500 or 800 people at a time!

Simply sync up the video-playback of those celluloidal strips and the spinning audio disk - voila! THAT would surely stop all piracy! (Of course, that didn’t help Mr. George Romero back in 1969 when he ordered a few extra prints for one of his first projects. Hmmm…)

Now… if only Sony would get their accounting systems to observe honest and verifiable arithmetic so their signed artists would be paid what THEY were owed-!

[DVDranger]

It is really interresting to read all the posts here. Many people know everything better and they know every secret in detail, that some companies protect very hard. Really, really amazing.

1.) If all you guys know it better, where is your solution? Hmm, I never see any solution. Why not? Where is the solution from Slysoft or DVDFab? Never seen it.
2.) There are dozen of crazy audacity tries availabe. But to run dozen of filter over an audio file is not an solution, it is an desperate try. A hint: Use the original audio, invert it and remux it. Cinavia is gone.
3.) If you can read, we can read, detect and remove Cinavia. But it is not a simple binary code somewhere. It is scattered in the audio. If you can read, we remove it, but we also need to repair the audio.
4.) I think everyone knows that it is impossible to remove Cinavia without losing quality. If you want this, whatch your movie with VLC.

Recognize, we do not run filters on the audio, we remove cinavia from it. Then we use a filter to improve the quality. So it is not possible to update the Firmware and everything is ok. They have to update the whole protection technology to hide the watermark in their Cinavia solution.

[ChristineBCW]

I’m happy that it’s a perfect solution. I’m sure that, with the millions already sold, this product will sell tens of millions more. It’s rather shocking the Defeat Of Cinavia is even a topic anymore, considering how wonderful this product is. It’s similar to debating whether the auto-mo-BEEL will replace the horse-drawn wagon… or maybe, it’s more like…

[CDan]

[QUOTE=DVDranger;2695447]
Recognize, we do not run filters on the audio, … Then we use a filter to improve the quality.[/QUOTE]
So which is it?
Your credibility would improve if you didn’t speak gibberish.

we can read, detect and remove Cinavia

That’s stretching the truth quite a bit.

[DVDranger]

This is not stretching the truth this is fact and we can proof this. The problem is NOONE else here can proof anything he wrote.

All you people think that Cinavia is a little peace inside the audio. Read our whitepaper. It is not a little peace that you can remove and have the quality. It is in the whole audio in different levels with different quality. And so in case of all this little parts it is very complicated to re-arrange the quality of the audio.

We think our audio quality became very good. Sure, there is much work, but please tell me ANY, really ANY other solution and not all this F* audicity tryouts. You can destroy everything with an sledge.

I suggest you read our white paper and then you give us a proof that we are wrong.

CDAn, also you first comment shows your technical skills.
1.) Audicity solutions do not remove Cinavia. They run plenty filters or strecht the playtime or whatever. But they run the filter on the Cinavia protected file.
2.) DVD-Ranger removes Cinavia and THEN runs filters on the file to repair. Similar to psychoacoustics.
3.) So I just suggest to read and not to combine two different things.

[_Jethro]

The bottom line is, does the audio sound as good after CinEx as before? The answer is, for now,no.