DVD deterioration cause: Time or use?

I see a lot of talk here about DVD media deteriorating (rather than simply being poor/bad from the git-go) and wonder if it is due to the usage or simply the passage of time.

Can anything be done to try to reduce deterioration?

Just curious.

Thanks.

Keeping the media in a cool, dry, dark place in a CD jewel case or DVD case is supposed to be the best way of prolonging the useable life of the media.

However, some media deteriorates badly in a short time, no matter what you do with it. I burned some movies to Ritek GO5 AAA+ grade media last June. After burning, I used Nero CD/DVD speed to see how well they had burned. Excellent results, very low PIE and almost non-existant PIF levels. A couple of weeks ago, I tested these disks again. They have never been played, and they’ve been kept in standard DVD storage cases in a cool dry cupboard, so no extremes of temperature, no light of any kind getting to the media, and guess what? All of the Ritek GO5 disks had PIE levels exceeding 4000 and PIF’s reaching 45+. Needless to say, none of the disks are any good. They won’t play in any DVD player, and can’t be read in any DVDrom/DVDburner, so they are simply dustbin fodder :confused:

I’ve had the same problems in the past with cheap media, such as Princo dyes. All seemed fine when they were burned, but a few months later they were just so much waste plastic :eek:

I can only second Mender’s input. :iagree:

You asked about “use”: from my experience, playing the discs has no impact whatsoever on disc degradation (but then again, DVD is rather new so who knows…), but besides storing, handling can have a huge impact. Dust, scratches etc… can play havoc on your discs and render them unusable in a short time.

About “time”: all models “degrade” at different rates, but also are more or less sensitive to light, humidity and heat. So storing has a huge impact on the aging process.

As you can see, it’s (sadly) not as simple as “time or use”… :frowning:

If degradation is constant under controlled conditions, I would feel that the better the inital burn the longer the life depending on the quality of the media. Like Mender and Francksoy I feel light and heat speeds up the process.

A couple of weeks ago, I tested these disks again. They have never been played, and they’ve been kept in standard DVD storage cases in a cool dry cupboard, so no extremes of temperature, no light of any kind getting to the media, and guess what? All of the Ritek GO5 disks had PIE levels exceeding 4000 and PIF’s reaching 45+. Needless to say, none of the disks are any good.

One thing to keep in mind is the role certain cabinets or storage situations could possibly play in the early deterioration of the dye layer. If chemicals can leach from the adhesive of a label into a disc’s dye layer, it would seem possible certain airborne vapors could do the same.

For instance, paper used for case inserts often are acidic, and could be off-gassing potentially harmful (to DVDR’s) vapors. How about the case itself – especially cheap ones? Plastic containers are known to leach chemicals (plastimers I belive) into food and beverages, even the ones approved for such use. Imagine what these chemicals in a closed DVD case could do to a to a disc…

Wood cabinets can also be a concern, depending the age and constrution materials. Older cabinets made of solid wood are likely fine as long as there are no traces of reactive substances possible spilled on them in the past, (for example - kitchen cabinets could have previously stored cleaning solutions or been sprayed with insecticides). The newer cabinets constructed of particle board – with or without a real wood veneer covering – are notorious for off-gassing large amounts of harmful vapors (especially formaldehyde) for the first 5-10 years. Where I live it is enough to add a taste to certain open foods (potatos, veggies) stored in such a cabinet. It is not out of the question that such vapors could be harmful to DVD discs – directly or in certain combinations of other local vapors.

Something to think about.:eek:

Other than agreeing that G05 is bad, it degrades too fast regardless of how you store it. I have to ask how did you did this? Ritek don’t make “AAA+” they only do one “A”. That sounds like RiDisc Exreme to me, which is not a Ritek brand.

RWP I don’t think the chemicals from a sticky label actually leach into the the dye layer. can you point to proof such a thing happens?

My apologies, yes, it is Ridisc Xtreme, but they are made by Ritek for Ridisc. The Ritek FF Silver Printables suffer exactly the same problem - after a few months, they are almost completely unreadable, as are the Datawrite Optima Blue, so the G05 dye is no good at all.

On the other hand, I have loads of Datawrite CMC MAG AE1 disks that I burned more than a year ago, and they still scan the same as they scanned when they were first burned. They are stored in the same way as the G05s.

As for the chemicals leeching into the dye layer, this happened with some (usually very cheap) paper labels attached to CDR media, which of course has the dye layer and reflective layer on top of the plastic, and is therefore susceptible to any sort of damage. With DVD media, as the dye layer is sandwiched between two layers of plastic, the chemicals cannot come into direct contact with the dye or reflective layers, so the problem can’t (or shouldn’t) exist.

I’m sure this problem is known by the manufacturers and could be resolved, but would effect their long term profits. It seems strange that CDRs dont appear to be degrading at anywhere near the same speed probably due to more stable dyes.

Cds are, after all, an older technology and in one format only and don’t forget the immortal and indistructable hype they had when they forst came out. DVD’s are still relatively new and in multiple formats. Though I think you are incorrect in your assumption wobble, if they got the problem sorted out their long term profits would be greater as people would buy them and recommend them to friends like I use to do with Ritek, and the emphasis is “use to”. After all word of mouth is a very powerful advertising form that they don’t even have to pay for.

I am still having no problems with my G04s, Ritek branded or third party, the problem seems to have come in mostly with G05, I have already told Ritek my opinion of their G05s and how I won’t be buying Ritek again after multiple failiures after a short period of time. I do conceded some are having problems with G04s too, which got me wondering. Are the G04s some people are experiencing problems with produced after the G05s came out?

Mender, incorrect, RiDisc are a third party seller and buy from multiple sources Ritek just happens to be one of them, thus they could in effect be selling “B” grade media or lower as “A” grade. Mind you so does Datawrite.

More or less. :iagree: - All my G04 (Traxdata and Ridisc purple) bought before the fall of 2004 are stable, but from all the G04 batches I bought early 2005, about 10-15% of the discs are/were stable. It’s actually the G04 issue that brought me to this board in the first place… :bigsmile:

About G05, no it’s not a “bad” dye. If it was a dye problem, ALL G05 discs would degrade like this, which is not the case. I have some totally stable G05s here. So it must be a manufacturing quality issue. They’re cutting expenses… at our expense. :frowning: I’ve read recently that good DVD-R discs are more difficult to manufacture than good DVD+R, which (if it’s true) would explain why Ritek +R discs are less problematic.

Oh and yes, you can’t expect third-party cheap brands like Ridisc, Datawrite and the like to sell good Ritek media, when even the -R discs sold by top brands like Traxdata and Ridata (Ritek own brands) or Maxell, are of questionable quality!

Mender, incorrect, RiDisc are a third party seller and buy from multiple sources Ritek just happens to be one of them, thus they could in effect be selling “B” grade media or lower as “A” grade. Mind you so does Datawrite.

According to Ridisc, all the G05 media they sell are manufactured by Ritek, and they stopped buying them for a while due to poor quality. They bought CMC media (and some other types) instead, and then, when Ritek had apparently sorted out their quality problems, Ridisc once again started buying from them, and marketed them as AAA+.

I’ll try to find the article for you. I’m sure it was posted here on Freaks, amongst other places.

I know this article, it’s been around for quite long and dates back to 2004. 99% marketing intox if you ask me. Ridisc Xtreme G05 (marketed AFTER the so-called “solved issues with Ritek”) are still about the worse G05 you can find, despite Ridisc claims. High failure rate and extremely fast degradation. They just tried to cover their asses with this self-inteview.
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?NewsId=12652

I remember that “interview” too, self-hyped rubbish. After all if Ritek only use “A” for its’ “A” grade media then where do the other two and the + come from? Also considering there are still a lot of problems with the quality control of Riteks’ own A branded media (Traxdata and RiData) where G05 dye is concerned ask yourself this: Would Ritek solve the problem for others and not for themselves? The quality control problem has not been solved. Hence self-hyped rubbish.

Though it is correct about all its’ G05s being made by Ritek as it is a Ritek dye, doesn’t mean Ritek make those discs specifically for RiDisc, after all I have seen Datawrites with the G05 mid.

You have to remember there are not set rules or legislation regarding the grading of media, I could release a media and grade it “AAAA platinum +” which would mean nothing as it could still be crap and I wouldn’t be breaking the law. Therefore “AAA+” grade from a third party seller should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I’d even say with a handful of salt… :iagree: :bigsmile: - oh, actually you can even throw the whole pot. :stuck_out_tongue:

I have to disagree a little bit with this. Don’t panic - just read my reasoning. :wink:

In my experience products marketed with a ridiculously self-promoting name like this (AAA+ Grade) should always be dismissed as utter crap, because the only time that names like that is being used is when the product is really inferior, and the seller tries to over-compensate for this fact.

So no pinch of salt, but just plain dismissal of the claim to quality by anything that is named Astro Super-Duper Googleplex Professional Ultra-Hyper Septuple-AAAAAAA Titanium Grade! :disagree:

Maybe there are exceptions to this rule, but I can’t think of any.

As for the chemicals leeching into the dye layer, this happened with some (usually very cheap) paper labels attached to CDR media, which of course has the dye layer and reflective layer on top of the plastic, and is therefore susceptible to any sort of damage. With DVD media, as the dye layer is sandwiched between two layers of plastic, the chemicals cannot come into direct contact with the dye or reflective layers, so the problem can’t (or shouldn’t) exist.
It was my belief (apparently an incorrect belief) that ALL consumer writable optical media was essentially the same in terms of the dye layer being just under a top coat reflective layer – and having a great vulnerability to damage there. There are very many threads in various forums stating that consumer DVD’s can be damaged from the adhesive of labels; if this is not true then I will go back to the threads I know of and add this information. :doh:

Hopefully we are all still in agreement that paper labels are bad for discs because they can seperate when warmed and cause damage to the drive?

Haven’t heard about this one yet :confused: , but what I know is that paper labels can totally ruin the playability of DVD discs. Some have even reported that taking the labels off was enough to get unreadable discs back to normal.

Lots of theories to explain why labels are bad, but I recently came across an explanation from Memorex, explaining that it’s a problem with the way paper absorbs or looses humidity constantly, leading to contraction/dilatation of the label and thus impacting the tilt of the whole disc.

“Paper labels are not recommended for DVD discs.
The expansion and contraction of moisture in the paper and the accumulation of heat in a DVD drive can alter the flatness of a disc enough that it falls out of the tilt specification and may not be able to be read.”
Source: Memorex, Reference guide for optical media

Here is one of many threads on the Pinnacle forums regarding problems caused by using paper labels on DVD’s.

Yes, paper labels can become unstuck, and therefore jam up the drive. I’ve seen this happen on several occasions when I’ve had the thankless task of cleaning up the mess inside for friends, and I can see the logic behind the suggestion that paper labels can create uneven surface tension on a disk, thus causing the disk to warp slightly.

As for the dye layer on DVDR media, all you need to do is get hold of a coaster and snap it in two, then examine the broken edges. You will see then it is made of two thin disks bonded together with the dye and reflective layer sandwiched in between :slight_smile:

I agree 100%. Its like calling “AAA Plumbing” to come fix your leaking pipe. :Z