Does burning speed affects CD / DVD lifespan, regardless of degradation of the media?

vbimport

#1

Hi, guys. May I know does burning speed affects CD or DVD’s lifespan, regardless of the degradation of the material of the media?

When the media is burned with a good scan, it’ll remain the same in future, assuming the material of the media doesn’t degrade?


#2

Well that’s actually a good questions, there’s probably no way to prove that burn speed does or does not affect life span of a disc.

It may on some discs, it may not on others. I think there were a few reports that some burn speeds on some specific discs led to quick degradation but I can’t remember where I read that.

There’s no real right or wrong answer here. I suggest burning at a medium speed (8x on 16x discs) and that should generally be the safest. Too slow is no good and too fast can also be bad.


#3

Logically it shouldn’t, although a bad burn (shown by a scan/TRT) may easily become unreadable if the media degrades further than the bad state that it already is in.

[QUOTE=SCC;2171618]When the media is burned with a good scan, it’ll remain the same in future, assuming the material of the media doesn’t degrade?[/QUOTE]

Theoretically, yes. Although CDs and DVDs will eventually degrade into unreadability over time, no matter what. The use of high quality media will retard the degradation phase longer, and therefore is always recommended for archival-type data.


#4

[QUOTE=cd pirate;2171642]Well that’s actually a good questions, there’s probably no way to prove that burn speed does or does not affect life span of a disc.

It may on some discs, it may not on others. I think there were a few reports that some burn speeds on some specific discs led to quick degradation but I can’t remember where I read that.

There’s no real right or wrong answer here. I suggest burning at a medium speed (8x on 16x discs) and that should generally be the safest. Too slow is no good and too fast can also be bad.[/QUOTE]
Burning of the fastest speed means the fastest speed of the media or the burner?

On the other hand, burning with max speed of the burner is prone to bad burn, right? I would like to know would burning at the max rated speed of the media also prone to bad burn like burning with max speed of burner? If let’s say my burner max burning speed is 22X, while my media rated speed is at 16X, would burning at 16X, which is the max speed of the media lead to bad burn? How if I burn over the rated speed? Would such max & over limit burn speed affects the lifespan of the media?

[QUOTE=evo69;2171697]Logically it shouldn’t, although a bad burn (shown by a scan/TRT) may easily become unreadable if the media degrades further than the bad state that it already is in.

Theoretically, yes. Although CDs and DVDs will eventually degrade into unreadability over time, no matter what. The use of high quality media will retard the degradation phase longer, and therefore is always recommended for archival-type data.[/QUOTE]
I see. I guess high quality disc such as Taiyo Yuden, Mistubishi will last long enough, right? How long would it lasts generally? There’re manufacturers actually claimed that they can last for 100 years, right? How true this would be, in ur opinion?

Btw, I’m using Mistubishi DVD-R now, the brand of the MCC manufacturer itself. The quality should be the same or even less variation of quality compare to Verbatim, right? Bcoz I see someone recommend Verbatim while not recommending Mistubishi, so I’m wondering.


#5

[QUOTE=SCC;2171875]Btw, I’m using Mistubishi DVD-R now, the brand of the MCC manufacturer itself. The quality should be the same or even less variation of quality compare to Verbatim, right? Bcoz I see someone recommend Verbatim while not recommending Mistubishi, so I’m wondering.[/QUOTE]

Depends on which Mitsubishi :slight_smile: Verbatim DVDs (with some exceptions) are made for Mitsubishi Kagaku Media / Mitsubishi Chemical corporation by various outsourcers using their equipment and materials (plus some made by MKM/MCC themselves).
The problem is there are several Mitsubishis (even though they have their roots in a single company) and there is also media branded Mitsubishi Electric which is NOT made using the same equipment and technology as Verbs. It should say on the packaging which of these two Mitsubishis the discs are from.

And “Mistubishi” disks are probably only made when the weather is bad :slight_smile:


#6

To make things clear, the maximum official rating for any DVD media is 16x, however newer drives now support writing these discs at up to 22x. The discs that are able to reach 22x are severely limited though, so YMMV. This forum recommends burning discs at the maximum rated speed (and the DVD standard) 16x - 18x, 20x, and 22x are just there for marketing purposes and does not give any significant burning time advantages (except maybe giving you more bad burns).

Yes, they are more prone to screwing discs when burning at higher speeds than what the disc is rated for. Burning at 16x is the fastest recommended speed as these discs are originally rated at 16x, although results of the burn may even be better at 8x or 12x (6x for 8x media). Burning over the rated speed may only be successful if high-quality media is used, and the results largely depend on the quality of the burner itself and not only the media. Burning at the maximum rated speed and overspeeding high-quality discs have not been proven to severely affect their lifespan, however since there are more chances to screw up and waste expensive discs, burning at less the maximum speed is the CD Freak’s normal course of action (burn quality over speed).

100 years = untrue. At the most perfect archival environment (climate controlled etc.) my guess would be 20-40 years, but since DVD technology is younger than that, there’s no real-world proof that they last that long except for accelerated aging tests. At the normal joe’s shelf/basement (not the sloppy joe :p) I’d give it 5 years, and at the CD Freak’s storage probably about 10-15 years - and that is if it will never be used until it is needed.

[QUOTE=SCC;2171875]Btw, I’m using Mistubishi DVD-R now, the brand of the MCC manufacturer itself. The quality should be the same or even less variation of quality compare to Verbatim, right? Bcoz I see someone recommend Verbatim while not recommending Mistubishi, so I’m wondering.[/QUOTE]

As Aramchek said, only spindles marked as Mitsubishi Kagaku Media/Mitsubishi Chemicals Corporation and not Mitsubishi Electric are the only “real deals”. I use Mitsubishi-branded media (and I have a ton - love them because they’re cheaper in my country) aside from Verbatim DVDs, and from tests they are entirely similar to Verbatim except for the branding and designs.


#7

I think that questionable burns (including, among others, burns performed at higher speeds, which are consistently less good than burns performed at medium speeds) can age faster than better burns. I have no hard proof for that, but two solid indications:

1.
It has been shown that original jitter levels on CD-R are (negatively) linked to disc stability over time. Granted, DVDR are no the same thing as CD-R, but given the fact that both use organic dye, it’s sensible to expect a similar behaviour from DVDR. And guess what impacts jitter levels most consistently? Guessed right, burning speed. :stuck_out_tongue: - the higher the burning speed, the higher the jitter levels, especially near the outer edge in the last ~500 MB.

2.
I’ve burnt lots of MCC 02G20 (Verbatim 8X -R). It’s a very stable MID, both in my experience and from accelerated aging tests. Despite this, all of the MCC02RG20 blanks I’ve burnt in a bad burner (JVC DR-M10) have shown a very fast, even catastrophic, degradation rate in my survey (scans performed 2X a year). So burning quality definitly impacts disc stability.

I think that too slow burning speeds (like @2.4X or @4X for current media) can affect disc stability just the same BTW.


#8

[QUOTE=evo69;2172086]and at the CD Freak’s storage probably about 10-15 years - and that is if it will never be used until it is needed.[/quote]I expect more than that from my discs. About 30 years. I’m talking about premium stuff, with no defects and very good burning quality. But maybe I’m too optimistic.
Though, mind you, I’m anal about handling and storing. :bigsmile:


#9

I have a feeling that burning speed and whether too little or too much laser power is used could impact lifespan, but I have seen no studies nor I have I attempted to test it myself.

I tend to agree with Francksoy’s point of view, that the best you can do is to use media of archival quality[li], minimize the jitter and PIE/PIF during initial burn, and then treat and store the media properly.[/li]
Nobody can predict how long the disc will last. Anyone who claims to be able to predict that with any certainty, is either lying (a.k.a. marketing) or doesn’t know what they’re talking about (a.k.a. marketing).

[li] Which doesn’t mean that the media has to be named “archival” something, nor is media named “archival” something necessarily of archival grade.[/li]

[quote=Francksoy;2172365]Though, mind you, I’m anal about handling and storing. :bigsmile:[/quote] I hope that doesn’t mean that toilet paper is somehow involved. :doh::stuck_out_tongue:


#10

[QUOTE=DrageMester;2172387]or doesn’t know what they’re talking about (a.k.a. marketing).[/quote]:clap: LOL :bigsmile:

I hope that doesn’t mean that toilet paper is somehow involved. :doh::stuck_out_tongue:
[KM]
I noticed that toilet paper is too rough for the polycarbonate, it leaves scratches on the surface. :wink:
(not related to possible scratches anywhere else, caused by heavy use of toilet paper in case of emergency). :stuck_out_tongue:
[/KM]


#11

[QUOTE=Aramchek;2171909]Depends on which Mitsubishi :slight_smile: Verbatim DVDs (with some exceptions) are made for Mitsubishi Kagaku Media / Mitsubishi Chemical corporation by various outsourcers using their equipment and materials (plus some made by MKM/MCC themselves).
The problem is there are several Mitsubishis (even though they have their roots in a single company) and there is also media branded Mitsubishi Electric which is NOT made using the same equipment and technology as Verbs. It should say on the packaging which of these two Mitsubishis the discs are from.

And “Mistubishi” disks are probably only made when the weather is bad :-)[/QUOTE]
I see. There’re even outsourcers from Verbatim? Lol. Btw, didn’t heard of Mitsubishi Electric before. Is it genuine too? Besides, wat do u mean by Mitsubishi disks are made when the weather is bad?

I hereby enclose an attachment of my DVD’s label too. It should be the correct one, right?

[QUOTE=evo69;2172086]To make things clear, the maximum official rating for any DVD media is 16x, however newer drives now support writing these discs at up to 22x. The discs that are able to reach 22x are severely limited though, so YMMV. This forum recommends burning discs at the maximum rated speed (and the DVD standard) 16x - 18x, 20x, and 22x are just there for marketing purposes and does not give any significant burning time advantages (except maybe giving you more bad burns).

Yes, they are more prone to screwing discs when burning at higher speeds than what the disc is rated for. Burning at 16x is the fastest recommended speed as these discs are originally rated at 16x, although results of the burn may even be better at 8x or 12x (6x for 8x media). Burning over the rated speed may only be successful if high-quality media is used, and the results largely depend on the quality of the burner itself and not only the media. Burning at the maximum rated speed and overspeeding high-quality discs have not been proven to severely affect their lifespan, however since there are more chances to screw up and waste expensive discs, burning at less the maximum speed is the CD Freak’s normal course of action (burn quality over speed).

100 years = untrue. At the most perfect archival environment (climate controlled etc.) my guess would be 20-40 years, but since DVD technology is younger than that, there’s no real-world proof that they last that long except for accelerated aging tests. At the normal joe’s shelf/basement (not the sloppy joe :p) I’d give it 5 years, and at the CD Freak’s storage probably about 10-15 years - and that is if it will never be used until it is needed.

As Aramchek said, only spindles marked as Mitsubishi Kagaku Media/Mitsubishi Chemicals Corporation and not Mitsubishi Electric are the only “real deals”. I use Mitsubishi-branded media (and I have a ton - love them because they’re cheaper in my country) aside from Verbatim DVDs, and from tests they are entirely similar to Verbatim except for the branding and designs.[/QUOTE]
YMMV? Joe’s shelf/basement? & the sloppy joe? Well, I dun really get wat these mean. Mind to explain? =p

So, is it possible that burning at 16X is even better than 8X or 12X, since some said that the drives are optimized for high speed? So, generally, burning at the disk limit is still fine? I think burning at the burner’s limit is not wise, right?

Btw, I store my discs in a room where I’d turn on & off the air-con. The change of temperature probably is from 30 degree celcius to 24 degree celcius, & 16 degree celcius in rare case. While in hot days, the temperature might rise to 34 degree max. Do u think it’s still fine for storing the discs?

In my country, both having around the same price. Do u think that Mitsubishi is more promising in quality, since it’s made by the manufacturer itself while Verbatim would have some exception to have other manufacturer?

[QUOTE=Francksoy;2172363]
1.
It has been shown that original jitter levels on CD-R are (negatively) linked to disc stability over time. Granted, DVDR are no the same thing as CD-R, but given the fact that both use organic dye, it’s sensible to expect a similar behaviour from DVDR. And guess what impacts jitter levels most consistently? Guessed right, burning speed. :stuck_out_tongue: - the higher the burning speed, the higher the jitter levels, especially near the outer edge in the last ~500 MB.[/QUOTE]
I experienced higher PIE/PIF error in my last part of my burn too. I was wondering why is it so… It’s bcoz of jitter? Btw, wat’s jitter actually, in a brief & accurate explanation?

[QUOTE=Francksoy;2172363]
2.
I’ve burnt lots of MCC 02G20 (Verbatim 8X -R). It’s a very stable MID, both in my experience and from accelerated aging tests. Despite this, all of the MCC02RG20 blanks I’ve burnt in a bad burner (JVC DR-M10) have shown a very fast, even catastrophic, degradation rate in my survey (scans performed 2X a year). So burning quality definitly impacts disc stability.
[/QUOTE]
Besides, how was ur initial quality scan of the DVD burned from the bad burner?

[QUOTE=DrageMester;2172387]
Nobody can predict how long the disc will last. Anyone who claims to be able to predict that with any certainty, is either lying (a.k.a. marketing) or doesn’t know what they’re talking about (a.k.a. marketing).
[/QUOTE]
Marketing = lie or ignorance? Lol!



#12

[QUOTE=Francksoy;2172365]I expect more than that from my discs. About 30 years. I’m talking about premium stuff, with no defects and very good burning quality. But maybe I’m too optimistic.
Though, mind you, I’m anal about handling and storing. :bigsmile:[/QUOTE]

Don’t we all become anal about our media? :flower: :stuck_out_tongue: We expect a lot more from top-shelf archival grade media, but sometimes paranoia kicks in, and factoring in inconsistency - it makes more sense to guess conservatively. :wink:

Right on. That’s why real freaks check their recorded stash at a scheduled/regular interval. However bad marketing may be, it sells products and feeds hungry mouths. :stuck_out_tongue: Hooray for spin! :smiley:

[QUOTE=Francksoy;2172402]:clap: LOL :bigsmile:[KM]
I noticed that toilet paper is too rough for the polycarbonate, it leaves scratches on the surface. :wink:
(not related to possible scratches anywhere else, caused by heavy use of toilet paper in case of emergency). :stuck_out_tongue:
[/KM][/QUOTE]

:eek: Use three-ply? :stuck_out_tongue:


#13

[QUOTE=SCC;2172446]I see. There’re even outsourcers from Verbatim? Lol. Btw, didn’t heard of Mitsubishi Electric before. Is it genuine too? Besides, wat do u mean by Mitsubishi disks are made when the weather is bad?[/QUOTE]
They make some media in their own factory in Singapore - until recently, all dual layer discs where made there. Mitsubishi Electric discs would NOT be MCC/MKM, however in your scan, Mitsubishi Kagaku is listed twice, so those ought to be genuine.
Verbatim DVDs are made for them by Moser Baer in India, CMC in Taiwan and, until recently by Prodisc in Taiwan using MCC/MKM equipment and chemicals. In Europe, they also sell Taiyo Yuden media under the name Verbatim. Someone else will have to explain what is the case with nukable CDs - I know the pastel ones are made by Yuden.
The weather comment was a joke - you had written Mistubishi

[QUOTE=SCC;2172446]
In my country, both having around the same price. Do u think that Mitsubishi is more promising in quality, since it’s made by the manufacturer itself while Verbatim would have some exception to have other manufacturer?
[/QUOTE]
I’d expect they’re outsourced too. Also, Verbatim is actually owned by MCC/MKM.


#14

That’s the real deal alright. I also have a spindle of that type of Mitsubishi-branded media. And FYI, Mitsubishi (Asia) bought the Verbatim (N.America/Europe) name years ago and produces the same discs for those two brands.

YMMV: your mileage may vary
average joe: your normal consumer (non-geek/nerd)
basement: common “storage” area
sloppy joe: i was punning, although I was also referring to those who do not know how to take care of optical media

It is possible, but burning at slower (not slowest) often yields the best results. Burning at the “disc” limit is fine, yes. Burning at the “burner’s” limit is another matter (for debate), and it also depends on the burner! :stuck_out_tongue:

I suggest heading over to the nearest hardware/DIY store and grab a box or two of silica gel/dessicant. Pop one (or two) inside every opened spindle - rather than let the discs soak the moisture form the change in temperature, let the silica do it for them! :smiley: (Or find a location where the environment is more stable :p)

Mitsubishi=Verbatim. Different moniker for different markets. Quality from my own tests are generally the same, the difference lies in the manufacturer (Mitsubishi/CMC/Prodisc/Moser Baer) or the location (Singapore/Taiwan/India/China). Some of my Verbatim and Mitsubishi discs are both from Taiwan and made by the same manufacturer (Prodisc), and are similar in quality.

The burning becomes faster as it approaches the outer edge of the disc, and has a higher chance of increasing burning errors. Jitter… I’d rather leave it to the vets to explain this (or read Precision, accuracy, and reliability of disc quality (PI/PO/jitter) tests, it’s all there!)

[QUOTE=SCC;2172446]Marketing = lie or ignorance? Lol![/QUOTE]

Both! :stuck_out_tongue: :bigsmile:


#15

[QUOTE=evo69;2172478]
YMMV: your mileage may vary
average joe: your normal consumer (non-geek/nerd)
basement: common “storage” area
sloppy joe: i was punning, although I was also referring to those who do not know how to take care of optical media[/QUOTE]
I see. I wonder why Joe. Lol. I’m not used to Westerners’ joke.

[QUOTE=evo69;2172478]It is possible, but burning at slower (not slowest) often yields the best results. Burning at the “disc” limit is fine, yes. Burning at the “burner’s” limit is another matter (for debate), and it also depends on the burner! :p[/QUOTE]
I see. U mean that good burner burning at its limit is fine? Or it’s also not advisable?

[QUOTE=evo69;2172478]I suggest heading over to the nearest hardware/DIY store and grab a box or two of silica gel/dessicant. Pop one (or two) inside every opened spindle - rather than let the discs soak the moisture form the change in temperature, let the silica do it for them! :smiley: (Or find a location where the environment is more stable :p)[/QUOTE]
Hmm… U think such relatively slight change of temperature would causes moisture? Wat I’m worrying actually is the expansion & contraction of the physical material of the disc. Is it a concern actually?

[QUOTE=evo69;2172478]Mitsubishi=Verbatim. Different moniker for different markets. Quality from my own tests are generally the same, the difference lies in the manufacturer (Mitsubishi/CMC/Prodisc/Moser Baer) or the location (Singapore/Taiwan/India/China). Some of my Verbatim and Mitsubishi discs are both from Taiwan and made by the same manufacturer (Prodisc), and are similar in quality.[/QUOTE]
So, CMC, Prodisc & Moser Baer also making MCC**** coded disc?

[QUOTE=evo69;2172478]The burning becomes faster as it approaches the outer edge of the disc, and has a higher chance of increasing burning errors. Jitter… I’d rather leave it to the vets to explain this (or read Precision, accuracy, and reliability of disc quality (PI/PO/jitter) tests, it’s all there!)[/QUOTE]
I see. Anyway to prevent this? Well, for example 8X should be nice for burning DVD, right? Then, the fastest it goes is 8X only, right? I still get higher errors at the last part of my disc. Does this means that even at 8X, my burner can’t burn well? Btw, is all the part of the disc burning at the same speed?

[QUOTE=evo69;2172478]Both! :stuck_out_tongue: :bigsmile:[/QUOTE]
Haha!

[QUOTE=Aramchek;2172477]They make some media in their own factory in Singapore - until recently, all dual layer discs where made there. Mitsubishi Electric discs would NOT be MCC/MKM, however in your scan, Mitsubishi Kagaku is listed twice, so those ought to be genuine.
Verbatim DVDs are made for them by Moser Baer in India, CMC in Taiwan and, until recently by Prodisc in Taiwan using MCC/MKM equipment and chemicals. In Europe, they also sell Taiyo Yuden media under the name Verbatim. Someone else will have to explain what is the case with nukable CDs - I know the pastel ones are made by Yuden.
The weather comment was a joke - you had written Mistubishi

I’d expect they’re outsourced too. Also, Verbatim is actually owned by MCC/MKM.[/QUOTE]
Are CMC & Moser Baer using MCC/MKM equipment & chemicals as well? I think there’re CMC coded disc, right? Wat’s that then? & I think there’re Prodisc disc too.

Nukeable CDs? Do u mean my attachment? That’s actually the label of the spindle. Lol.

When weather is bad… Still dun really get it. Guess I’m not used to Westerners’ joke. ><


#16

You want to know what jitter is - there are some good explanations on jitter on the cdfreaks DVDRW drive reviews.

If I had to explain it super quickly:

Think of someones hand writing. Spelling mistakes are PIE/PIF errors, neatness of the hand writing is the jitter. (Although in reality jitter and PIE/PIF are more closely related than my example).

Anyone can feel free to disagree with that example but it gives a general idea I think.

High jitter can definitely lead to degradation like [B]francksoy[/B] said. If the jitter levels are already high, and natural degradation makes it get a little worse, the disc will become even harder to read. I find some drives are sensitive to high jitter whereas others are not. A jump in jitter, on a disc with already high jitter levels, could make it much harder for a sensitive drive to read.

And that validates my point about the hand writing example. If you tried to read two 500 word essays and one had absolutely no spelling mistakes but hand writing was very messy, you might struggle. Other people might not struggle to read the messy writing. If the other essay had some mistakes here and there but was generally excellently readable hand writing wise, you could probably read the essay with no problems quite quickly. Drive A struggles with high jitter, Drive B does not.

Dragemester also pointed out something about laser power. This is also true. Probably why ultra slow speeds are no good. The laser burns to much in one spot, the pits and lands get deformed because of it and jitter is then higher. Opposite kind of think for high speeds, perhaps not enough laser power because of the massive rotational speed the disc is spinning at, pits and lands get sprayed out and poorly formed - jitter is higher.

This is why middle speeds are best. They aren’t too slow or too fast and have the best of both worlds (decent burn time, and decent quality).

Also when I say a middle speed - it depends on the discs rated speed not the drives. There are plenty of 8x discs that perform at 8x However picking a speed such as 4x or 6x will often also result in a good burn. 8x is the best speed IMO for any 8x-16x disc.

16x discs are generally all best @ 8x. I have not seen many results, if any at all where higher speeds blatantly beat the 8x write quality.


#17

[QUOTE=SCC;2172864]
Are CMC & Moser Baer using MCC/MKM equipment & chemicals as well? I think there’re CMC coded disc, right? Wat’s that then? & I think there’re Prodisc disc too.[/QUOTE]
All three also make discs with their own media codes (though Prodisc might have stopped making discs - I’m not sure if it has been confirmed?). I don’t know where they got the equipment and chemicals from for those.

[QUOTE=SCC;2172864]
Nukeable CDs? Do u mean my attachment? That’s actually the label of the spindle. Lol.[/QUOTE]
All I meant is that I don’t know who makes Verbatims burnable CDs

[QUOTE=SCC;2172864]
When weather is bad… Still dun really get it. Guess I’m not used to Westerners’ joke. ><[/QUOTE]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mist You wrote Mistubishi instead of Mitsubishi. I don’t like misty weather, since it decreases visibility and cycling through it makes me cold and wet if I haven’t brought warmer clothes.

[QUOTE=cd pirate;2172872]
Opposite kind of think for high speeds, perhaps not enough laser power because of the massive rotational speed the disc is spinning at, pits and lands get sprayed out and poorly formed - jitter is higher.
[/QUOTE]
I could imagine another problem being that, since it is impossible to manufacture a disc with absolutely perfect balance, side to side movements caused by the resulting vibrations would also cause problems getting the laser to stay in the right track.