Do CloneCD really clone an exact copy of an Audio CD?

vbimport
#1

Ive been having this thought on my head.........

When i use cloneCD to copy a real authentic audio cd........am im getting all the bits or musical data?

i tried comparing through listening with my Koss (sporta and ksc50) but dont hear much difference, maybe its because these are not true audiophille cans that lets u see the difference.

So am i really 'cloning' an audio cd......when using clonecd......or is this possible?

is it helpful to tone down the read speed abit?--as ive heard it somewhere in other post.

i think other people are itching about this question too.

#2

CloneCD4 will read your audio at 8 speed max. CloneCD4 also has the option for selection the quality of audio extraction (bad, medium, good, best). Don’t know what CloneCD is doing for the different settings… I guess that Olli did not include a secure mode like EAC has… If anybody knows, I would like to know that!

:smiley:

#3

Why is this topic moved to Experienced users?

then that means…not many readers and responses.

very bad. i dont really like it this way.

oh well

#4

Originally posted by kenchi1983
[B]Why is this topic moved to Experienced users?

then that means…not many readers and responses.

very bad. i dont really like it this way.

oh well [/B]

It does mean that experienced users will look at this question, which isn’t as easy to answer as you might suspect (onviously, or it wouldn’t have been moved to here, probably by FP himself).

In the other CloneCD forum more people may post their questions, but that doesn’t mean those people will have your answer.

Sorry I can’t be of more help.

#5

Tax is right, more chance here you get an answer that makes sense!

:cool:

#6

Originally posted by kenchi1983
[B]Why is this topic moved to Experienced users?

then that means…not many readers and responses.

very bad. i dont really like it this way.

oh well [/B]
I am sorry that you feel this way. I have just researched an article for an Australian IT magazine about why Plextors do such great DAE and why some don’t. Why you have to read audio slow or why you don’t. This is of great interest to experienced users and the less experienced users are always looking here. The ‘post count’ is NOT an indication of technical excellence, subject matter expertise or knowledge.

I can see who’s browsing and when; I have all sorts of bells & whistles that tells me when who’s who is online - you’d be surprised at who browses but doesn’t comment unless it’s necessary. You will find that you will get great comment in this sub forum. It’s very late where I am but I’ll turn a bit of my article into an answer for you and give you some leads.

cooee

#7

I have just researched an article for an Australian IT magazine about why Plextors do such great DAE and why some don’t.

What magazine? I’ve been wondering this for a while.

The ‘post count’ is NOT an indication of technical excellence, subject matter expertise or knowledge.

Amen to that. I probably knew more when I only had 20-30 posts than what I know now. I used to be able to quote the Yellow book exactly. Now I have to go look and search for it to find it.

#8

oh, thanks for the consideration…

i didnt actually feel bad, its just an exageration…that i didnt really like it.

but now…its all okay.

I also have another question…the data inside an audio cd…is all just those 0101001010111100 numbers right…so is it possible that ‘it is not hard’ to get exact copy?

#9

Originally posted by kenchi1983
[B]oh, thanks for the consideration…

i didnt actually feel bad, its just an exageration…that i didnt really like it.

but now…its all okay.

I also have another question…the data inside an audio cd…is all just those 0101001010111100 numbers right…so is it possible that ‘it is not hard’ to get exact copy? [/B]

Don’t remember, but I’m pretty sure that Audio CD’s have zero error correction. Zip. Nada. So when you scan, you don’t know if it is correct or not. Also, CD-Roms have to correct the ‘real’ errors on the CD. This is done differently for different drives, I think? It may only be a software thing. Ask Upper3Dog, he’ll know.

#10

Data cd-roms have real error-correction with ECC + EDC. Audio cd’s don’t have this… the only error correction available for audio-cd’s is the lowlevel CIRC errorcorrection (Q-parity (=C1 errors), interleaving, P-parity (=C2 errors)). This error-correction mechanism can only make up for small errors… ECC+EDC can compensate much ‘bigger’ errors.

For more info on getting the best audio-quality possible while doing DAE, get into Exact Audio Copy (EAC reads sectors several times and compares them in the software and rereads the sectors if necessary.)

:smiley:

#11

Copying an audio-cd with CloneCD or EAC should give the same result if you don’t care about audio offsets. This Offset-Correction feature isn’t implemented into CCD (yet), but I’m shure, Olli will work to fix this issue …

There are many rumours that copying would change the sound quality, but this is complete bullshit!!!
If you correct the offset on READING and WRITING and compare the images of original and copy with fc /b under a DOS-Prompt, then NO DIFFERENCES are encountered.
And if errors occur on the copy because of jitter, sratches, etc. you will get clicks, pops or drop outs but NO other sound.
Look @ http://www.brennmeister.com/cdrfaq/4.html#4-06-07 for details (in german!!!).

PS.: I even use Audio-CDs to store Data on it and I’m getting every single byte back on my HDD.

#12

Audio CDs are no different to data CDs except for price. The extra cost goes back to the Music Companies as a ‘royalty’ :Z

#13

@little-endian

Offsets has nothing to do with the quality of the rip. (Offset is about missing samples or extra samples.)

CloneCD and Feurio don’t have to give you the same result because they use the burst-mode when reading audio, that is: absolutely no verification if the audio data just read is correct, because there is no error-correction besides CIRC for audio. EAC uses a secure mode for reading, that is: it reads a sector at least twice and compares the results, if it doesn’t match up, it will try again till a maximum of 16 times (I believe…) which can make extracting in secure mode really slow. Don’t know what Olli implemented for audio in CloneCD 4? You can now select your DAE-quality…

Don’t think Olli will implement Offset-correction in CloneCD… not even Andre Wiethoff, the author of EAC, uses offset-correction! When dealing with offsets, you are dealing with really marginal things…

:smiley:

#14

@Upp3rd0G

Yeah, you’re right!
Maybe I should write: Copying an audio-cd with CloneCD or EAC should give the same result if your CD is absolutely clean (no scratches) and if your CD-Reader is simply the BEST.

But if you care about offsets and want to get all the subchannels from the original CD you can combine the image created by EAC with CloneCDs SUB and CCD File …

#15

Originally posted by Upp3rd0G
[B]@little-endian

Offsets has nothing to do with the quality of the rip. (Offset is about missing samples or extra samples.)

CloneCD and Feurio don’t have to give you the same result because they use the burst-mode when reading audio, that is: absolutely no verification if the audio data just read is correct, because there is no error-correction besides CIRC for audio. EAC uses a secure mode for reading, that is: it reads a sector at least twice and compares the results, if it doesn’t match up, it will try again till a maximum of 16 times (I believe…) which can make extracting in secure mode really slow. Don’t know what Olli implemented for audio in CloneCD 4? You can now select your DAE-quality…

Don’t think Olli will implement Offset-correction in CloneCD… not even Andre Wiethoff, the author of EAC, uses offset-correction! When dealing with offsets, you are dealing with really marginal things…

:smiley: [/B]

I will not implement offset correction, as it is completely pointless. Red Book allows offset of ± 75 sectors (± 1 Second playtime), if I remember correctly. No reader I have ever seen is that bad!

At the moment, CCD4 does not do really elaborate stuff with Audio like EAC does, but it is planned… but unfortunately it isn’t ready for the release. Currently, the “Audio extraction quality” selection only overrides the read speed and is more or less a placebo and has been implemented so that all translators can test the language files.
The “real good stuff” will come into a later (free) update.

#16

Originally posted by little-endian
[B]@Upp3rd0G

Yeah, you’re right!
Maybe I should write: Copying an audio-cd with CloneCD or EAC should give the same result if your CD is absolutely clean (no scratches) and if your CD-Reader is simply the BEST.

But if you care about offsets and want to get all the subchannels from the original CD you can combine the image created by EAC with CloneCDs SUB and CCD File … [/B]

OK, in your hypothetical situation, you are right! How do you know if your cd is absolutely clean, for example. I like the check EAC uses in the secure mode. I hardly ever get 100% track quality with my Plextor PX-40ts for my entire cd, even with brand new pressed cd’s!

How can I combine an EAC image with the CloneCD subchannel file? Sounds interesting! Did you really accomplish this?

:cool:

#17

Originally posted by Olli
At the moment, CCD4 does not do really elaborate stuff with Audio like EAC does, but it is planned… but unfortunately it isn’t ready for the release. Currently, the “Audio extraction quality” selection only overrides the read speed and is more or less a placebo and has been implemented so that all translators can test the language files.
The “real good stuff” will come into a later (free) update.

Ah… that is nice to know, I was already wondering what the audio-extraction quality really meant! I am looking forward to the “real good stuff”!!! Thanx for a great program!

:smiley:

(Gruesse aus der Niederlaende!)

#18

@Upp3rd0G

Mit dir könnte ich mich eigentlich auch auf Deutsch unterhalten, deinen Grüßen nach zu urteilen, anstatt mir hier einen abzubrechen ;-))) Aber egal …

FIRST: Don’t expect too much :wink:
Let’s start with a little test which only makes sense in theory …
I’ve tried this with the good old Terminator 2 Soundtrack, ORIGINAL, of course.
I read the disc with CloneCD, Audio-Subs enabled [UltraPlex 40max], CUE sheet enabled. After finished, the cue-sheet looks like this:

FILE “T2_OST.img” BINARY
TRACK 1 AUDIO
INDEX 1 00:00:00
TRACK 2 AUDIO
INDEX 0 01:56:58
INDEX 1 01:58:65
TRACK 3 AUDIO
INDEX 0 04:30:15
INDEX 1 04:33:53
TRACK 4 AUDIO
INDEX 1 09:08:55
TRACK 5 AUDIO
INDEX 0 12:34:18
INDEX 1 12:37:28
TRACK 6 AUDIO
INDEX 0 14:26:58
INDEX 1 14:29:00
TRACK 7 AUDIO
INDEX 0 18:35:58
INDEX 1 18:38:00
TRACK 8 AUDIO
INDEX 1 21:49:10
TRACK 9 AUDIO
INDEX 1 23:28:48
TRACK 10 AUDIO
INDEX 0 24:10:03
INDEX 1 24:12:53
TRACK 11 AUDIO
INDEX 0 27:35:28
INDEX 1 27:37:53
TRACK 12 AUDIO
INDEX 0 31:35:68
INDEX 1 31:38:30
TRACK 13 AUDIO
INDEX 1 34:06:18
TRACK 14 AUDIO
INDEX 1 35:50:10
TRACK 15 AUDIO
INDEX 1 38:53:53
TRACK 16 AUDIO
INDEX 1 40:20:70
TRACK 17 AUDIO
INDEX 1 43:00:20
TRACK 18 AUDIO
INDEX 1 45:06:33
TRACK 19 AUDIO
INDEX 1 47:22:13
TRACK 20 AUDIO
INDEX 0 49:03:18
INDEX 1 49:05:70

Then I read the same CD with EAC [Offset Correction +676 Samples, C2 error detection]. I detected the gaps with method A, accurate and generated an image (w/o header, of course) and a CUE-sheet:

FILE “C:\T2_EAC.raw” BINARY
TRACK 01 AUDIO
INDEX 01 00:00:00
TRACK 02 AUDIO
INDEX 00 01:56:58
INDEX 01 01:58:65
TRACK 03 AUDIO
INDEX 00 04:30:15
INDEX 01 04:33:53
TRACK 04 AUDIO
INDEX 01 09:08:55
TRACK 05 AUDIO
INDEX 00 12:34:18
INDEX 01 12:37:28
TRACK 06 AUDIO
INDEX 00 14:26:58
INDEX 01 14:29:00
TRACK 07 AUDIO
INDEX 00 18:35:58
INDEX 01 18:38:00
TRACK 08 AUDIO
INDEX 01 21:49:10
TRACK 09 AUDIO
INDEX 01 23:28:48
TRACK 10 AUDIO
INDEX 00 24:10:03
INDEX 01 24:12:53
TRACK 11 AUDIO
INDEX 00 27:35:27
INDEX 01 27:37:53
TRACK 12 AUDIO
INDEX 00 31:35:68
INDEX 01 31:38:30
TRACK 13 AUDIO
INDEX 01 34:06:18
TRACK 14 AUDIO
INDEX 01 35:50:10
TRACK 15 AUDIO
INDEX 01 38:53:53
TRACK 16 AUDIO
INDEX 01 40:20:70
TRACK 17 AUDIO
INDEX 01 43:00:20
TRACK 18 AUDIO
INDEX 01 45:06:33
TRACK 19 AUDIO
INDEX 01 47:22:13
TRACK 20 AUDIO
INDEX 00 49:03:18
INDEX 01 49:05:70

The two CUEs look the same except the entry INDEX 00 @ Track 11. A difference of 1 frame occurs. Don’t ask me why.
But one thing is clear: The Gap detection of CloneCD is (nearly) perfect because it uses the subcodes, while EAC tries another method which often gives COMPLETE wrong results, especially on scratched CDs. But back on topic…

I replaced the image from EAC with the CloneCDs one and recorded this onto CD-RW.
The copy will have the correct subcodes (inkl. all gaps, ISRC, etc.), BUT another write offset (at least on my burner PlexWriter PX-W1210S). Normally I have a write-offset of -30 samples but if I use CloneCD as described I get -1206 Samples. Maybe this is because of the subs … Olli, any idea ??? :wink:

But if you correct this again while reading the copy, you end up with the same image without any generation loss. OK, I don’t know, how long the subs are reliable.

The same is possible for mixed-mode cds, too. You only need a good file splitter/merger …

#19

i dont have the program EAC (exact audio copy)…

so should i get this program…i was kind of afraid that since its a beta version…and on the website it said its only for experienced user…

so…with me…an average knowledged user…should i also consider dling this program and maybe use it?

and what happens if my hp writer (4x) does not or is not capable of reading subaudio data? any differernce?

the only thing i gripe about my comp is this slow slow writer…takes at least 20 min to image and then burn a full cd.

still okay though.

So, should i get EAC?

#20

@little-endian

Nice test, but what does it show?

First: I really don’t care about offset anymore after I learned more about it and heard from Andre Wiethoff that not even he is using it!

Then the difference in index 0 for track 11: I think it is coincidence… my Plextor drive is sometimes also one frame off when reading the same cd several times…

Still don’t understand how you exchange an EAC image (big .wav-file) with a CloneCD image (.img-file). Don’t think CloneCD image file is a wave file…

:smiley: