DiscSpeed/TRTs/Setting read speed

Is anyone sure that the author of CD-DVD Speed has support for the Panasonic chipset in that drive?

At this point CD Speed or Discspeed loads a block in the Registry for several Drives including the LGs. This is because LG enabled DQ scanning in their latest firmware only recently. I think H50 to H58 Panasonic chipsets can all do DQ scans.

I suppose Erik may look at the LG and make some changes and adjustments to DiscSpeed in the future, but I don’t know.

You have to go into the Registry and remove the Block.

http://club.cdfreaks.com/f96/discspeed-trts-setting-read-speed-261217/#post2219052

All I’ll say is that whatever results you will get from scanning on this drive will still be inaccurate, and while it may provide a general outlook on comparisons with discs burned on the said drive itself, the scan results will still be incompatible with what is the generally accepted conditions of the Nero CD/DVD Speed scanning procedure.

For what it’s worth the number of samples taken on a MediaTek chipset can be in the 100,000+ number of samples (taken at 1.0+ ECC). Nexperia drives report around 15,000+ samples (at 8.0+ ECC). All scans that are used in discussions are taken using the highest “Accuracy” slider setting available under the DQ “Advanced” button. The “doubled numbers” should be the proper result of your scans, not the lower numbers - which may be in fact a gross misrepresentation of the amount of errors being reported. And MediaTek/Nexperia/Sanyo chipsets scan at the proper speeds which aids in reproducible results with acceptable variations in the results obtained.

I don’t understand what you mean by PIF levels and “hits” - sorry.

As I understand it the reason why LGs (Panasonic/Renesas) chipsets are blocked in the registry by Nero CD/DVD Speed is due to the fact that these chipsets are inappropriate for use as “scanners” due to their inaccurate reporting of PIE/PIF as well as Jitter/POE. I may be mistaken with this info but for now I believe that it is correct.

[B]“generally accepted conditions”[/B] As I said, [U]Local comparative relativity[/U] Is what I need >Here< to get my burns right with this drive. So far it has not scanned anything I have and given me a result comparatively ‘inaccurate’. Not just a general picture, a specific one.

Yes, these numbers are about the same as I’ve seen and the more samples you take at a given speed will take proportionally more time at that speed. I scan at 8ecc 2000 samples to do a lot of tests at different speeds without it taking all day for just a couple tests. This is why the Speed slider is there. I have tried a couple 17000 vs 1100 samples test and the Dq quality was a little different but not much. One was higher at Full Accuracy. I tried 1ecc and full speed. Takes eight times longer but the results were not that much different. More accuracy is better but I’ll use it when I’m discerning the quality of a burn on higher quality media.

Uhh … The PIF level would be the height of the line or lines on the graph. Indicating how much PIF is within a given area (I think maybe an ecc block) and the more PIF in a specific area or block the taller the line will be on the graph, which, as I’m sure you know, is what kills the quality value if its over a specific limit. These are PIF hits when they cross the limit, and they just chop your quality reading down real fast. The ones that stay below the limit are acceptable.

Well this may be true but it has not been included in the firmware in the past. LG may have not wanted to enable it for a number of reasons, but they finally did. My tests so far indicate it does work. The Jitter thing I’m still looking in to.

At this point, no one can tell me the scans do not work or are invalid. I have proven to myself specific accurate comparisons of my burns in my local test environment. And as I expect, I will see some significant differences in the scans when I burn some MCC-004.

If Erik will clarify this issue about his DiscSpeed scanner and Panasonic chipsets, I will accept his position. So far we hear nothing from the one who can answer this matter thoroughly. If he has written it somewhere, post it please.

Here’s an LG H55L scan I just did. This is the first scan I’ve ever done & have very little idea what I’m doing. I’ve been reading the forum postings, but there sure is a lot of information to learn.

I did not upgrade yet to firmware vers 1.06 as mentioned by DLW. I just haven’t had time to pull apart my PC and configure the drive to a Master position. But I thought why not first unblock the LG value in the registry as DLW mentioned. I figured the worst that could happen is that the scan just would not work. I’m not suggesting vers 1.06 is not needed, but it was real easy to try vers 1.05.

Disc was a 16X Verbatim DVD-R which had a short video on it that was burned with this same drive at 8X using ImgBurn. Please tell me what I really should set some options at. Under “Options” I set the Speed-Accuracy slider in the middle and the maximum DVD speed indicated 16. Yet as you can see, Settings indicated 2XCLV and Speed at the bottom was 0.28X. This took forever as you can imagine. How do I get it to scan faster?

How come there is no Jitter indicated? Perhaps I need firmware 1.06 for this?
DLW, what vers firmware did you have before upgrading to 1.06?

I’m presuming “Create Disc” burns a “standardized” disc which should be used, is this correct? What Option settings are typically used? I’d like to burn a few discs, scan them with my LG drive and then have my friend scan them with his Lite-On drive.

Any comments & suggestions would be appreciated.


Ok, let’s just wait for someone who knows the Panasonic chipset inside out, as well as the author of CD/DVD Speed. It’s hard to discuss the issue since we both don’t know the chipset design and the software used.

I didn’t know that over the limit PIF were called “hits” since I just called them “spikes” like everyone else. :wink: Like spiking, peaking, sawtooth patterning, but this is the first time I’ve heard it called hits. :slight_smile: :flower:

[quote=Mike109;2221207]How come there is no Jitter indicated? Perhaps I need firmware 1.06 for this?
DLW, what vers firmware did you have before upgrading to 1.06?

I’m presuming “Create Disc” burns a “standardized” disc which should be used, is this correct? What Option settings are typically used? I’d like to burn a few discs, scan them with my LG drive and then have my friend scan them with his Lite-On drive.
Settings indicated 2XCLV and Speed at the bottom was 0.28X. This took forever as you can imagine. How do I get it to scan faster?[/quote]

I was supposed to be at Ver. 1.05 but my flash stated it was not completed. I didn’t mess with it again because it was working OK. I don’t know if they enabled DQ scanning in 1.05 or 1.06, someone does. Post it please
The Jitter plot is a bit of a mystery right now. I’ve been studying it and have been correlating data but I have no conclusions yet. Click the Advanced button and make sure the Jitter Box is checked. Mid scale accuracy will take longer but if you don’t mind, its OK. Use 8 ECC in the Advanced settings. Make all DVD boxes checked.

‘Create Disc’ is ok to use but you need to create an ISO or NRG image. You can select your burn speed and run a simulation or the real thing. If you want you can just create a data disc, the Create disc will fill your disc with binary files for testing purposes. You can burn a Disc with other software, it doesn’t have to be ‘Create Disc’.

2xCLV at mid scale accuracy is very slow. Run it at 8x. You can try 12x but it might show high PIF. I use 1 notch up from full speed and 8x or 4xCLV. 6xCLV will default to minimum I believe, it doesn’t work.

[quote=evo69;2221209]Ok, let’s just wait for someone who knows the Panasonic chipset inside out, as well as the author of CD/DVD Speed. It’s hard to discuss the issue since we both don’t know the chipset design and the software used.

I didn’t know that over the limit PIF were called “hits” since I just called them “spikes” like everyone else. :wink: Like spiking, peaking, sawtooth patterning, but this is the first time I’ve heard it called hits. :slight_smile: :flower:[/quote]

Yea I wish we’d get some real authority on this matter in here.

Spike is OK. Yea, when you got a spike you got a PIF hit!

as stated i already know how to read cd-dvd speed outputs, but thanks for explaining it to me anyway. :slight_smile:

Well, write speeds are done during ‘Create Disk’ which I have included.

yes and this is why i stated this is the only reliable piece of information contained in your quality graphs.

I … may be … uh … losing you a little here. The green read speed line ?? is that what your referring to. They all start at about 4x and CAV to about 6.5x. You do know that this line will change when I increase or decrease the ‘Accuracy Bar’ in Advanced Tab. It is a ‘Progress rate’ indicator. And shows in XYZx speed figure how fast your progressing from the beginning to the end of the disc.

ok just for shits ill explain this one better for you even with a nice big picture.

it is my beleif your read speeds are unreliable. lets compare your “green read speed line” to one of mine. looking at your quality graphs of your CMC media the read speed progresses at a very inconsistent rate, resulting in a line which is not smooth by any means. your quality graph of M01J3004 does not even reach a full 8x speed and infact drops down to 4.49x by the end of the scan. the read speed looks more like a good jitter report.

the image i have posted clearly shows a nice smooth read speed, i even select 12x to enhance the over effect of how nice the speed progresses. yes i did slide the accuracy bar over to fast but that doesnt matter when using a BenQ.

i have more to say but will have to comment later as i need to get going to work now.


Yea, I know what you were saying. I was explaining how it shows read speeds on my Drive; which I thought you might not have understood.

OK I see you got a nice clean 12X read line.

“yes i did slide the accuracy bar over to fast but that doesnt matter when using a BenQ.” OK…

And when you slide it to full accuracy you still get the same clean 12x line I see ? How much time does the BenQ take to run a Full speed verses a Full accuracy test at the 12x speed setting ? I want to learn … When its done, you have that smooth 12x line ??

OH edit: Yes the read setting is not necessarily being interpreted by the H55 firmware as it shows on settings. But you can slow it down and speed it up. I will admit I do not have any way to actually measure the RPM the drive is actually at.

“your quality graph of M01J3004 does not even reach a full 8x speed and infact drops down to 4.49x by the end of the scan. the read speed looks more like a good jitter report.”

Yes its not reading the actual read speed. Its a progress speed indicator, not a data read speed from the laser. I can check this. I can turn the Accuracy setting to Max speed and that line may raise up. But the firmware never allows DVD-RAM to be read faster than 5x data rate. Its this brand of Panasonic DVD-RAM which is 2x3x write and 5x max read. But these exact read speeds are not important to me. This is not going to work [U]like other scanners[/U] but that doesn’t mean it can’t scan…

That “green line” you are referring to is the actual RPM/“x speed rating” that the drive is doing at that specific point in the graph. It is not only a progress indicator.

It is the actual read speed, only in X values (x=1385 KB/s). The right of the graph shows the “x speed rating” as major gridlines. While it is not actually reading the data off the disc, it is still measuring the error rates at x speed, which is the green line.

[QUOTE=DLW;2221235]But these exact read speeds are not important to me. This is not going to work [U]like other scanners[/U] but that doesn’t mean it can’t scan…[/QUOTE]

It is important since: 1) if you want to be sure it provides good information you should be able to repeat the same testing procedures over time, 2) arbitrary speeds will produce arbitrary results, and therefore, may not be valid data samples, 3) will not reproduce the normal operations of the drive itself. Number 3 is most important in your case since once these discs are “used” then the drive reverts to normal operations and may react differently to the disc in question (because the tests were done at CLV or whatnot).

That’s why I keep suggesting that such inaccuracies may prove a waste of time - because it probably most likely is - and that TRTs will be the best testing method for your current hardware.

But! I am not discouraging you to continue your tests since you are determined to make this work. I just want to warn you of the problems related to pursuing this matter. :wink: :flower:

I’m still all ears to whoever Panasonic/Discspeed expert may want to explain this though! :slight_smile: Oh come, gurus of home media scanning! :bigsmile:

You might be over playing the Speed issue in this case. The exact speed that is occurring (as far as Data rate) could be calculated by knowing the amount of data in each ‘Sample’ and then calculating the total bytes (in samples, such as 2000 samples) and dividing the total bytes by [FONT=Verdana]the total seconds of of the test (usually 10 minutes at 8x in the tests I’m doing, so 106060 = 36000 seconds. (And 1x DVD = 1.385 MBs ). But I don’t know the exact byte size of a ‘Sample’[/FONT] ; And I’m not sure of how much of that time is taken up by processor analysis time. [B]I am only concerned with[/B] the [U]‘Total samples’ , and the total time to complete the test[/U], which, [U]is reported at the end of the DQ scan.[/U] These two factors can be changed for the H55 scan with the DiscSpeed ‘speed’ and ‘Advanced settings’. [U]Comparative Relativity[/U] is giving me PIE/PIF readings that are telling me the comparative quality of the burns I have done with the H55, and, what the best burn speed is, to get the best quality rating. And has been confirmed to be correct.

I wanted (for learning purposes) to know if TROY’s BenQ always gave him the same green speed line at say 12x at the end of the test, no matter what Accuracy setting he used. And what the test time difference was between minimum and maximum Accuracy (minimum samples and maximum samples taken). It is just a point of interest to me.

So, more samples taken, at the same speed (such as 12x) would have to take longer to complete. This is logical, no? Time elapsed is not shown while the test is running, in X speed or minutes? But the same 12x green line is moving across the graph, slower or faster depending on the Accuracy setting, no??

Done, no problem.

My speeds are known and I am still testing the results of different [U]‘Total Time / total Samples’[/U] tests which are reproducible giving the same result on the same disc.

I have not seen this occur. The DQ scan will CLV a disc it normally will only read CAV, even after it has been used. Other settings will CAV test a disc. This is not a problem. Your reference to inaccuracies is inaccurate. I am getting [U]useful [/U]results and they do not have to match the standard details of current common scanners. As I have said before, I am getting much more insight on the disc burn than just a TRT. The H55L firmware locks the DVD-Video TRT to 2.5x-6x. Data is TRT to maximum speed. It can be hacked out with MCSE but I haven’t found it necessary. I have done a lot of movies in .mpg file format, where the firmware ran it to max TRT and I discovered some bad problems in the burn. I was able to see what was going on with the DQ scan and have made write strategy changes to fix it. It now confirms a correct strategy with both a TRT [U]and a DQ scan[/U].

[quote=evo69;2221278]That’s why I keep suggesting that such inaccuracies may prove a waste of time - because it probably most likely is - and that TRTs will be the best testing method for your current hardware.
But! I am not discouraging you to continue your tests since you are determined to make this work. I just want to warn you of the problems related to pursuing this matter. :wink: :flower:[/quote]

I gotcha … I appreciate all input. No problem … and wanting to tell you … it does work.

Yes !!! Please, Gurus, Masters, Erik!!! Teach us. :bow::iagree::flower:

On the scan main page under settings it does indicate 8X and Show Jitter, etc.

Under advanced there is a box labeled Jitter (DVD) which was not checked. What is the correlation between this and the settings which show Jitter is checked?

The same thing for Speed/Accuracy. There is a setting under Options and a setting under Advanced. What the heck is the difference?

On my first scan I did not go into the Advanced settings. I just used the Options. FWIW, I did try several speeds under the Settings on the main page and 8X was the fastest at only 0.65X.

I just played with a few settings. It seems the Advanced Speed/Accuracy affects the speed a whole lot more than the Options Speed/Accuracy.

But the Settings on the main page are set to 8X. What does that refer to?

The following scan had Options set all the way over to Accuracy and the Advanced all the way over to Speed. Checking Jitter in the Advanced settings does now show the Jitter. I also used 8ECC.

This is also a 16X Verbatim DVD-R disc which was burned at 8X and is a video file. On this almost filled disc the speed was higher than on the previous short video disc.


This scan is almost the same as my previous one, except I changed the Speed setting on the main page to 4X CLV. And it did slow down the speed.

What is the difference between all these speed settings?


Interesting, you are showing a different Jitter. Your Jitter is also lower than I’m get as an average. More like a normal looking one. I wonder if its Firmware.
Your speed line is normal at 8x at maximum Speed set in Advanced.

I don’t have a Speed/Accuracy setting in Options, only in the Advanced tab. Please show a picture of the Speed/Accuracy setting in Options, I’m not sure what your seeing. I know the one in the Advanced tab. We are both using DiscSpeed 4 and you got a more normal Jitter, I don’t know why. I am going to mess with some settings and see if I can dup that jitter you have.

The 8x is the scan speed but we’ve been arguing about that. It will change when you move the slide bar in Advanced.

I’ll be back. I’m trying to figure out how your getting that smooth jitter line.

BRB

The slide bar in options is for TRTs only (Transfer Rate tests). Only the one in the Advanced tab will effect your DQ scans.

Your using a much higher quality disc than I am and I cannot get a lower smooth Jitter line like you have using a CMC MAG M01. This is probably why my jitter line is so radical and high in value.

The speeds will change the rate the scan is done. If you get a high quality scan at 8x, 4xCLV, and 2xCLV you have a very good burn. It looks nice. Try 12x … that is the only faster speed you can do unless they changed something in the firmware.

As far as my jitter line being so bad, I don’t think its the firmware 1.06 but the low quality disc CMC MAG M01. I’ll find out when I get some MCC-004. But you have proved the jitter can look more normal; and be lower. I’ve checked all my settings and I cannot get a smooth Jitter line with these DVD+R CMCs.

Earlier when I was trying different speed settings on the main page, it looked like one of them was starting to give me a jitter reading on the graph. It displayed a purple vertical line at the start, but that’s all I saw. Something might have showed up later, but since all my first scans were slower then 1X, I stopped most of them very early.

This scanning is all new to me. Maybe you know someone with a Lite-On or other drive that can do scans & have them check some of your discs. That’s what I want to do. Or maybe go to a computer store or Best Buy & see if any PCs on display have a drive & Nero that may do the job. I guess the disc media itself be a cause of jitter.

I understand what you are saying about the slide bar in Options.

Here’s a scan of an 8X TY (Value Line) DVD-R that was recorded with a stand alone DVD recorder.
Advanced: slider all the way over to Speed.
Main page Speed setting at 8X.


I tried the Verb 16X again and scanned at 16X.
The Advanced Speed / Accuracy slider was all the way over to 100% Speed.
However the speed read out hovered around 2.6X and both of the jitter figures were around 20%. I stopped the scan early because it was going quite slow.

16X CLV with slider at 100% Speed: speed indicator dropped to about 2.8X and both jitter figures were about 20%. I stopped the scan.

12X with slider at 100% Speed: speed went up to 16X but Quality was only 18. I finished scan.

12X with slider at 75% Speed (second position from the left): speed about 5.5X and Quality at 15 after scanning .5GB. Then dropped to 0 shortly after. I stopped scan.

12X with slider in the middle: speed was about 2.4X and Quality was 94. I stopped scan.

12X CLV with slider at 100% Speed: speed dropped to about 2.6X and Quality was 99. I stopped scan.

8X with slider at 100% speed: speed was 12.92 and Quality was 97. I finished scan.

8X with slider at 75% Speed (second position from the left): speed dropped to about 6.16 and Quality was 96. I finished the scan.

8X with slider in the middle: speed dropped to about 3.15 and Quality was 95. I finished scan.

8X with slider at 100% Accuracy: speed dropped to .45X. I stopped scan.

8X CLV with slider at 100% Speed: speed dropped to about 2.5X and Quality was 93. I stopped scan.

6X CLV with slider at 100%: speed indicated was about 2.5X and Quality was 98. I stopped scan.

It appears if I want to do a scan in any reasonable time I need to have the Advanced slider set to max speed and the main scan page speed setting set to 8X. The second option is using 75% Speed. I have to look at the errors and figure out which is going up & which is going down. But the jitter was pretty much the same for 8X using 100%, 75% or 50% Advanced speed slider settings.

DLW,

I want to thank you for pointing out the way to make an LG drive do a quality scan. It appears this drive may not be as good as some of the others, but it’s a start & gives me something to look at.

I do want to give a friend some of my discs so he can check them on his Lite-On drive. This will give me another point for comparison.

But I still am not sure about using the Create Disc function. Is this just a burning engine and I still have to supply my own file to burn? I have all kind of video DVDs, but none of them fill a DVD exactly. And IIRC, the TRT does not go real fast on a video type DVD.

So is it better to use a data file instead of a video file?
How do you get a data file of exactly the right size to fill a DVD-R? It seems if I have a file that is too big, my other software tells me that it won’t fit.

Good testing Mike … You are using much better media than I, so I’ve been displaying the low quality stuff. Your displaying the High quality media.

Rely on 8x set on the front, and either 1 or 2 notches up from maximum speed. There are 5 positions. Full speed = 0% accuracy, up one notch is 25% accuracy, in the middle is 50% accuracy, up one notch more is 75% accuracy, and all the way to the right is 100% accuracy — which will take you a long time to scan. I use 25% accuracy and 8x and 4xCLV and 2XCLV. 12x is too fast. This will give you a sufficient picture of the quality of the burn. Use 8ECC intervals for now set in ‘Advanced’ until later when you get more advanced at the details.

The read speed you see is just a progress indicator of how fast you will move from the beginning of the disc to the end of the disc. The actual read speed of the data samples being tested is a current argument. The higher accuracy you use the more samples it will run and the longer the test will take. That is why that read speed indicator drops down as you move the slider to the right to accuracy.

The working read speeds are: 2xCLV, 4xCLV, 8x, and 12x. All others will default to minimum like 1 or 1.5x. The above speeds are your primary testing reference speeds.

I’ll get to your last shortly…

Good idea on the Liteon test do it and compare.

LG has locked the TRT to 2.5x-6x for DVD-Video movies. Data TRTs run at full speed.

DQ scans are for any disc whether its full or not. Yes ‘Create Disc’ is a burner supplying several good data points. Checking the include data box in the TRT options will put a burn graph in white on your disc. It supports .iso and .nrg image files only. It can create a full disc of binary data by not checking the boxes of Burn Image and Simulate. Pick your speed. The data is random files that fill your disc but are for testing purposes only. If you create an iso or nrg from any file you can burn that file. You’ll need NERO for .nrg images and I’d say ImgBurn for .iso images. You can burn the disc with both those programs too.

You can use Video or data files for DQ scanning. If its too large you must either use a double layer disc or it must be recoded down in size which is software built into some burners like Nero and Power Producer and other independent programs that reduce the size of the file; I rarely use a recode to fix a problem like that.
I’m too picky about the quality lost in recoding.