Disc Quality Comparison

vbimport

#1

Hi, I m very new to DVD burning. Just got my BenQ DW1640 few days ago.

Juz upgraded to f/w BSKB after one burn with BSJB. So, not much comparison can be made.

I m using some cheapo Melody 8x DVD+R (CMC MAG E01) Deep blue dye. (Dunno exactly wat dye).

The question is. When i do disc quality scans using Nero CD-DVD Speed. I get around 95, but my PIF and PIE is very high. High as compared to the results posted by other forumers.

So, how do i know whether my disc quality is good? Depends on the quality score? Does High PIF, PIE means my disc is no good?

If my disc quality is 85. But i can still read/retrieve the contents of my disc. Does it matter?

Out of 11 discs i burned, 2 shows very low disc quality. 2 of them shows 0. But the disc burn is completed successfully. So what exactly does disc quality show? My disc is burned successfully but the quality is no good? What can a bad quality disc do? What damage has been done?

Most of the time i do scandisk on the DVD and the results return is 100% GOOD. But the quality shows bad results. What does that mean?

Finally any suggestions on how to burn a good quality DVD?

Sorry for asking so many questions.

Thanks in advance for the your patience in answering my questions.

Very much appreciated.


#2

Congrats on your choice. As the firmwares mature and people figure out ways to tweak their burns, I would suspect it will be a champ of a burner.

Re. your quality scan questions, start at this thread: Interpreting PI/PO error scans.

Not the best way to start. IMO, CMC MAG E01’s have a high degree of variability and don’t give very good burn results. If you’re looking to size up your burn quality vs. other 1640 owners, I’d recommend using TY media … mainly because of the higher quality and better consistency as well as the fact that there are tons of posts already on TY media. Best Buy has Fuji 8x +/- R’s on sale this week. Make sure to buy only the Made In Japan Fuji’s (if you want TY): YUDEN000 T02 (8x +R), TYG02 (8x -R).

Hard to comment without looking at the scan. Post some when you get a chance.

You can say in general you’d like to be under PIE max of 280 and PIF max of 16, but there’s a lot more to it than that. A few spikes may not be a big deal in the big picture.

As for PIE v PIF totals … in general, I’d prefer to have lower PIF totals since PIE’s are correctable errors.

Quality Score is based on the the PIF MAX, so it’s hard to comment on just a QS alone without talking about specific scans (need to see the graphs). What matters is how many spikes and whether they’re congregated together in certain areas.

Btw, I’ve had a LiteOn burner give me a 3,442 PO Failure burn on FUJIFILM03 … and I actually was able to retrieve the data using a Sony DVD-ROM. So read/retrieve … depends on what your reader/player’s reading capabilities more so than the burn results.

It all depends on your reader/player for playback. Also, your media will degrade over time. Some faster than others. That’s why some people are adamant about using only the highest quality media … for data integrity and longevity sake.

Start with ‘good quality’ media. Other factors include: power supply, system setup, disk fragmentation state, background applications (turn off antivirus and whatever’s hogging resources), don’t multi-task during burns, drive temperature, media temperature (typically better scan results when the disc has cooled down), ambient/system temperature, good/bad flash job, corrupted burning software installation, etc.

Can’t really give you a difinitive answer on how to get ‘good quality’ burns. If that were available, there would be no need for this forum. :slight_smile:


#3

Wow, Thanx a lot ninbang for your patience in replying my questions. Now i really have a better understanding on the quality issue.

To summarize all this quality thingy, can i conclude that good quality scans means the disc will have a longer life span and better data integrity, whereas bad quality scan doesn’t mean the disc will be unreadable, only that the disc won’t really last and may wear out faster than ‘good quality’ discs?

Then, i have another question, i have a few discs with 0 score on quality. But i still can read it. That means it will wear out very very fast? Data integrity is compromised after a few reads??

If that’s the case i really need to get better medias :stuck_out_tongue:

Below are a few graphs taken from yesterday’s burn.

Media : Melody 8x CMC MAG E01
Burn Speed : 8x
WOPC : On
Solidburn : On
Overspeed : Off

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As you can see, both PIF and PIE are very very high. This mainly caused by media? Some DVDs i have to burn twice. The first time is either very low or 0 score.

Please comment and advise. Thanx.


#4

. Excellent Job Ninbang, and I also thank for your patient and caring to answer other people questions with such deep understanding


#5

To summarize all this quality thingy, can i conclude that good quality scans means the disc will have a longer life span and better data integrity, whereas bad quality scan doesn’t mean the disc will be unreadable, only that the disc won’t really last and may wear out faster than ‘good quality’ discs?

More or less, yes. Conditions of storage affect rate of degradation(five year olds with sticky fingers can wreck a disc very, very quickly), but if you keep your dvd’s out of sunlight, excessive heat etc, a disc with lower PIE and PIF should last longer.

Then, i have another question, i have a few discs with 0 score on quality. But i still can read it. That means it will wear out very very fast? Data integrity is compromised after a few reads??

The quality score on CD/DVD speed is based on the number of PIF and POF. A POF(Parity outer failure) is an uncorrectable error on the disc, and AFAIK if you have any POF the disc will get a quality score of 0. In general any POF on a disc mean you should not rely on it to last, and indicates a bad burn or media. PIF are what lower the quality score from 100. PI have no effect on the quality score. Scores of 88 are very good, and nothing to worry about, but if some in the batch are showing POF, I wouldnt trust 'em.
Oh, and as a side note,. reading a disc does not degrade it. Unlike with VHS or Audio tape, theres no physical contact, so reading does no harm. Length of time and conditions are the factors affecting degradation.

Those discs are probably not good if certain ones in a batch are showing POF, and shouldnt be relied on to store Gundam Seed :clap: episodes for any length of time. They are probably alright for the short term, but to keep for a long time, as ninbang said, Taiyo Yuden, or other good quality, for example Maxell and Verbatim, media should be used.


#6

First of all, Thanx for the info tonkins.

So far, the discs i’ve written don’t have any POFs. Do you think the quality of my disc is very bad?

PIEs are correctable, so i don’t have to worry. But my PIFs are very high rite?

What range of score would you consider a disc ‘ok’ and don’t have to reburn?

My discs are kept inside my room which no direct sunlight can come in. so i think disc degradation won’t be caused by it. But i m really worried bout the media quality.

As it’s my ‘first burn’ so i thot buying cheap medias to try out would be ok. But now i really have to think twice. There are so much to learn. First there are different standards +,- now i have to worry bout quality.

Hmm, it’s not as easy as i thot, :stuck_out_tongue: But i think i m getting a hang of it.

I’ll buy some better medias tomorrow to try.

So, you suggest i reburn my Gundam SEED? :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t really have any POFs but the disc would suddenly peak off, from lets say after 60% and the quality of the disc suddenly dropped from 93% to 80 to 50 etc etc then to 0. How come it’s like such?

Thanx again for all your help. :smiley:

Cheerz


#7

One more thing, Which brand of media is TY OEM?

I can find Maxell, Sony, Mitsubishi, Verbatim, Imation, SmartDisc or SmartBuy (Azo Blue or something).

I can’t find any 16x medias here, too expensive i think.

So all i can get are 4x and 8x medias. Please advise wch brand to get. Thanx.

P.S. Sony 8x +R 1 box (10pcs) sells around USD8 here. Is that considered expensive?

Thanx :smiley:

EDIT

This is one of the 0 score burn
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I didn’t notice the POFs yesterday.

So that means score 0 only occurs when there are any POFs correct?

I really have to change medias now. It’s so ‘unsafe’.

One more question. To burn a good DVD, should i first create an Image of the files i want to burn then burn the image? would that produce better quality burns?

Thanx in advance :slight_smile:


#8

Just passing along the kindness and generosity shown me by the regulars here. This place is simply an incredible resource, and some seriously generous people here who go out of their way to help. … but, the bottomline is people are willing to help those who are willing to put in the time themselves, right? :slight_smile:

Scan #1. QS 95, PIE 46 max (<280), PIF 8 max (<16), POF 0 … those numbers look fine. The 244,245 PIE total is high but I think still within DVD spec. PIF total 3,238 is ok but I’d be more comfortable below 2000.

Scan #2. QS 95, PIE 49 max (<280), PIF 8 max (<16), POF 0 … again, looks ok. Again, the high PIE / PIF totals are still good enough … but for long term storage I’d prefer to see lower totals (esp. PIF totals). The scan looks ok tho.

#3. QS 88, PIE 61 max (<280), PIF 17 max (>16), POF 0 … the PIF spikes and bunches at the beginning and end of the disc would make me a little nervous, but it should still playback. PIE totals are ok and the graph looks good. 11,022 PIF total is higher than what I’d be comfortable with.

… try playing these discs back on your reader/player to find out where their tolerances are for PIE/PIF ranges.

… I’ll keep echo’ing what everyone has said already … if you want better results, give yourself the best chance to achieve it by treating yourself to high quality media (imo TY or Verbatim). You’ll be pleasantly surprised in the improvement in your scan results … it may just ‘buy’ you a sense of ‘security’ if you plan to archive important data.

If it’s mission critical data that you can’t afford to lose, Kenshin made a great suggestion about making multiple backups. For example if you have a 1.3 GB data file, put 3 copies of it in the dvd. That way, you’re protected in 3 different zones of the dvd … increasing your salvage chances if something bad occurred in certain areas of the media. Or, if it’s a larger file, then make multiple backups placing the file in different sections of the disc. ( I believe NERO burns in the order that you add to your compilation … don’t quote me on this though ).

If you’re worried about media quality, buy yourself some peace of mind by using high quality media to start with. Cheap media doesn’t seem worth the fuss for critical data storage.

‘Data integrity’ can be tied to the quality of the media, burner’s compatibility with media, resulting burn quality, and subsequent media handling and storage. tonkins made some great points about storage conditions (btw, there are many threads addressing this in the forums here) - ie. store them in a cool, dark, non-humid (if possible) place. Definitely out of sunlight … and reach of curious 5 year olds. Lol. :slight_smile:

If it’s really important archiving, definitely must use high quality media, and some suggest burning at the rated speed of the media to get the best burn (opinions will vary as burner compatability / performance thus varies).

Some people suggest using black color dvd cases (not the ones with clear lids) to block out the sunlight. Media wallets aren’t usually recommended because of the excess pressure on the discs when the wallet is full (and typically a wallet full of dvd’s will be slightly more ‘bulky’ than if filled with cd’s). If you prefer to use wallets, keep them stored vertically (not horizontally b/c of the pressure directly on the discs) and don’t fill them up to the point the sides are bulging when you zip it up.

The simplest way to do it is just keep 'em in the spindles they came in.

That is not good at all. 0 QS may still playback, but I wouldn’t trust it to store critical data onto. Even presence of PO Failures will still playback in many cases. If you keep getting 0 QS scores, you may have a bad batch of media … or simply, your burner/firmware doesn’t really like that media choice.

I’ll premise by saying each drive has different preferences for firmware / media. But, say, TY’s on your 1640 … if burning 8x, I would expect to see PIE ttls <60,000 (<20k or <10k for some), PIF ttls <1,000 (<200 or <100 for some), and QS’s in the 90’s (95-99 for some). Check out the Benq 1640 media thread for reference ( but be aware most people are posting their best burns … with some ok/mediocre burns sprinkled in ).

Lol. If you never ventured to this site, you wouldn’t think twice about your burns. If NERO said it “completed successfully”, that’d be the end of it. You’d only know good (working) and bad (not working).

I can definitely ‘feel your pain’ as there is a lot to digest. But, in the end, it’s a personal preference. Is there a big real-world difference b/t a 99QS and a 97 QS? B/t a 2,000 PIF total and a 200 PIF total? It may not make much difference … because all that tells you is what you START with quality wise. As tonkins said, from there on, you’re at the mercy of so many other external factors.

It may be a bit overwhelming, but it’s definitely worthy knowledge. You now have the right frame of mind for planning your burns and taking care of them thereafter.

… Btw, I think you’ve just opened the floodgates of curiousity into the burning world, so I realize there are many questions on your mind. Do yourself a favor and spend some time researching through the forums. Use the SEARCH function and scan the thread headings, and you’ll see most of your questions have already been addressed. If you show you put some work into it, the people here are very generous about giving advice. Good luck! …


#9

Thanks again to ninbang for such a generous, long and detailed reply.

It’s very very informative and it really gave me a much much better understanding of what DVD burning is all about.

Thanks for all the advices given and i’ll definitely do more research from now on.

Still, it’s very hard to find TY medias here. Any OEM for TY medias?

I’ve found verbatim, maxell and mitsubishi though.

I’ve checked today and the price for 25 in a spindle is around USD18. Which is around USD 0.72 each. You think it’s cheap? I would say it’s not that expensive compared to the Melody which i bought for around USD12.

But for Verbatim, are there different quality oso? Or is it as long as it’s Verbatim then it’s ok?

Thanks again for all the effort spent on answering my questions. Really really appreciated.


#10

TY comes OEM as FujiFilm brand. Look for Made in Japan. If they are made in Taiwan, then they are not TY media.

I know that Sony +R Made In Japan are also TYs.

As for Verbatims, here is what I have recently discovered and what I know. It used to be that Made in Sinagapore Verbatims were Mitubishi Chemical Corporation (MCC). These were simply superb discs.

I am not certain when it happened, but I understand now that Verbatims are still using the MCC manufacturer ID (MID), but that they are manufactured by three or four different plants.

If the spindle has a paper insert on top and they are made in taiwan, they are made by CMC Magnetics. If they are made in taiwan and the spindle does not have a paper insert then they are made by Prodisc. If they are made in India, then they were made by Moser Baer. I am not certain if there are still any Verbatims that are Made in Singapore. If there are, I would assume that they are made by Mitsubishi.

Let me qualify my next statement by saying I have no personal experience with Verbatim as as of late (I use TY media), but I have heard from this forum that CMC Magnetics and Prodisc are not good. Since these companies are manufacturing discs “on behalf” of Mitsubishi (since they use the MCC MID), I am not certain if these MCC discs that they produce are as good as the MCC discs that Mitsubishi produces…

Hope that helps.


#11

@ toytoy:

Glad the info helped out. Keep lurking around the pages here and just soak in all the information available. This place is a gold mine for dvd burning help. :wink:

Hmm … I forgot you’re in Malaysia. I’m in the USA and mainly buy from local retailers. I’m not sure if Rima.com ships internationally, but maybe check out the Bargain Basement thread for discussion on ordering internationally (I think there are a few threads re. Europe / Australia mail order media).

In the US, the sale priced TY’s typically go for $40 per 100 pack. You can find online deals for around $30 per 100 pack (+ shipping tho). So, $0.72 per disc is pretty close to the regular non-sales price here ($80 per 100 pack). Rather expensive for my neck of the woods. :slight_smile:

Kenshin mentioned That’s is TY’s brand. Not sure what other flavors they come in internationally. In the US, TY media is available from local retailers by the brands Fuji (not for long tho), Sony, and TDK. You can always find authentic TY online (hopefully not faked). :slight_smile:

I’m not the expert on Verbatim, but there are 4 different sources they are from: Singapore (Mitsubishi), Taiwan (Prodisc and CMC), and India (Moser Baer). Most agree the Made In Singapore are the best Verb’s. Search the forums for more opinions … i know there’s an ongoing discussion on them currently. Don’t have the link handy.

Good luck.


#12

Thanks to both genericuser and ninbang. Thanks to you all, now i know what medias to get. I really don’t wanna get Verbatims (CMC MAG) thinking they are Mitsubishis… hehe… :smiley:


#13

Hi all Gurus.

This is my latest burn. Please comment.

Media : Melody 8x burned @ 8x
SB : On
OB : Off
WOPC : On
Burn Time : 7.59mins

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This is by far my most satisfied burn. It’s created using an image.

Transfer Rate Graph
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#14

That is not a horrible burn. For the media that you have it is good. If you were to do that same burn on TY T002 I would expect PIE average around the 2-3 range and PIO average around .02.

Looks like you have the process for doing the burns down (I think you said you burned an image to the disc). The curves all look good. The PIE graph is consistent and does not spike anywhere. Now all you need is to get better media.


#15

Thanx for the prompt and positive reply genericuser. :smiley:

The problem now is to find better media. I don’t think i can find TY medias here, but I’ll try. If i can’t get in M’sia maybe i’ll try Singapore. :stuck_out_tongue:


#16

hey toytoy, how is it that ty medias arnt common to find in my? do u live in kl? or outside selangor? i mean so much electronis and computer hardware is manufactured in my u would think itd be cheaper than other countries, or that stuff that r not made in my would still be cheaper than us coz the shipping+taxes r higher here. and like ninbang said, u can get 100 oem ty media here for about ~40 ish. so the 10 sony [no guarantee of the mid or origin] for 8 us [thats 32 ringgits] is a lot, unless u meant 8 ringgits!

however if its more expensive [or completely] unavailable, guess itd be wise to stockup with 500-1000 disc if i finally do decide to move there [wonder what other hardware/parts i should get b4 too?] and theres always singapore [if the media/hardware is available there at a reasonable price] plus its barely 4 hrs drive from kl and much better than traveling to s.korea, taiwan/hk or japan for hardware n stuff. hey btw how much did u pay for that 1640, in ringgits?

i know its a bit too much asking of u, but could u please give me links to sites in my, that do hardware reviews and also sites that do online sales? [its okay if theyre in malay, i can have them translated right here.] so where do u buy ur media from, online retailers/local hardware shops, or malls [and i guess chowkit is outta question here!] thanx in advance, and id really appreciate it if u could answer atleast a few of these questions or atleast direct me towards the place where i can get some more answers.

[sorry i asked quite a lot of questions.]


#17

Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of utter shite from India, I’ve found it under Kodak’s brand name. The MID is MPOMEDIA 080 or MPOMEDIA 040, and it’s absolute trash.
Rule of thumb: AVOID Kodak branded DVD media, they are no good. There are other terrible Kodaks out there, incl. AML 001 (no name Chinese I think).
Some Moser Baer is OK, but don’t take any chances with Made in India if you don’t have to…


#18

Hi, L’Arc-en-Ciel, I’d be more than willing to answer your questions.

how is it that ty medias arnt common to find in my? do u live in kl? or outside selangor?

Yes, i live in Subang Jaya, Selangor, which is around 20 mins drive to KL. I’ve tried looking in Low Yat Plaza (which is now the most complete Computer Store in town), but to no avail.

and like ninbang said, u can get 100 oem ty media here for about ~40 ish. so the 10 sony [no guarantee of the mid or origin] for 8 us [thats 32 ringgits] is a lot, unless u meant 8 ringgits!

Nope It’s RM29 here for 10 Sonys. The prices for media here is still high up in the ceiling. I saw the other day in a website 100 TYs only costs less than USD0.40. I m so jealous. :frowning:

…and theres always singapore [if the media/hardware is available there at a reasonable price] plus its barely 4 hrs drive from kl and much better than traveling to s.korea, taiwan/hk or japan for hardware n stuff.

Yes, there’s always singapore, it’s very near to m’sia. If i still can’t find here, i’ll probably try there. It’s definitely cheaper than travelling to overseas just to get DVD medias. Unless there’re some nice ppl that’s willing to bring in a few thousands of them for me :stuck_out_tongue:

hey btw how much did u pay for that 1640, in ringgits?

RM200 and that’s around USD 52. Is that cheap? I dunno the price out there :smiley: When i went to buy the drive, the shop i bought from keep saying BenQ is not good. They recommended LG4167B. I really can’t make up my mind at that time coz LG supports DVD-RAM as well as DVD-R DL @ 6x. But now that i’ve bought BenQ, No Regrets.

could u please give me links to sites in my, that do hardware reviews and also sites that do online sales?

Hmm, I m sorry, i really dunno any of these sites. The only one i know which is set up by one of the hardware retailers is www.compu-zone.com. Which sometime is up and sometime not. They have prcelists there too. I myself always refer to tomshardware, anandtech and of course cdfreaks etc.

where do u buy ur media from, online retailers/local hardware shops, or malls [and i guess chowkit is outta question here!]

yes, Definitely not chow kit :slight_smile: I get it from local hardware shops. There are a lot selling medias. but juz not TY medias :frowning: lots of verbatims, mitsubishi and sony though. :stuck_out_tongue:

Hope this answers all your questions. If you have further questions, please feel free to answer.

Cheerz :smiley:


#19

Thanx for the info riggits. Will avoid Kodak at all costs. :stuck_out_tongue:


#20

toytoy, thanx a bunch for taking the time to answer my questions. looka like ill have to stockup with around a 1000 ty dvd’s + 200-400 ty cds if i do decide to move there [i guess when bd-dvd is adopted and available in about a years time from now, itll also be unavailable in my and very slowly adopted there, ouch!] now i just have to loadup with all the hardware ill need for the next 2 years atleast [i doubt ill be able to visit korea/japan anytime soon] coz i just checked hardware prices in malaysia and its really really high, all the way from 30%-150% higher!!! athlon64 3000+ is about 10 usd more but opteron 242 is slightly more than 50 usd more in my, Klipsch GMX D-5.1 will cost 350 usd [converted from ringgits] but its only 180 usd here, heck for 300 u can get the klipsch ultra 5.1!

but the 52 u paid for the benq isnt that high, i got it for 50 including shipping about a month ago, and now its shipping for free @ 47 usd, so thats not terribly high. but just as i suspected lower priced items are closer in price to other countries, but its the higher priced/bigger items like cpu/ mb/ ram/ hdd/ vid cards thats gonna set u back quite a few K ringgits, not to mention i didnt find any 1gb ram sticks/matched pairs being offered for sale. now i have to just findout about singapore prices/availability and if its lower then im doing all my hardware shopping there. [now to figure out how im gonna run my laser printer made for the us in my as the voltages r diffrent, and about broadband services there!]

btw low yat, is it located near bukitbintang road? [that brings back memories, we used to shop quite a lot there/just hang out, lol.]

ive found a few other urls [just incase u need them too im posting them here] www.hardwarezone.com.my [and click on “price guide” to see local etailer and pricing] http://www.lowyat.net/v2/ [these people also have price listings from etaliers.]

thanx a lot for taking the time to answer. now gotta findout if my salary there will be nuff for an apartment+food+bills and still have some leftover, coz im quite sure living cost has atlest doubled, maybe even tripled, over the past 10 years [since 95, when i was last there,] and im just hoping it hasnt quadrupled [like most major us cities now over the past 10 years] coz thats gonna be really hard to cope with! once again thanx a lot dude.