Daemon-Tools Author Speaks about SecuROM

Originally posted by VeNoM386
I just passed by in this forum and couldn’t resist smile after reading your discussions and explantions.:slight_smile:
Here is REAL explanation of what is new Securom.
Latest version of Securom CANNOT be copied on usual media just like other protections of this style (CDCOPS etc.). PERIOD.
Forget about 1:1 copy in a traditional way!
The glass master used to produce original SecuROM disc has unsteady physical parameters along the spiral track containing data sectors. Securom loader verifies these parameters and checks that they are indeed changing along the track which is not the case on your ‘1:1’ copy.
You cannot copy it on usual media because usual CD-R/RW has consistant chacteristics all over the disc (track pitch etc) and its parameters are different than parameters of the master.
It is the same as trying to duplicate $100 note on usual paper - you must have special paper.:slight_smile:
Maybe some day new media will appear that will allow to change their characteristics on-the-fly, but not now - so forget about the days when you made 1:1 backups, you will have to use either cracks or emulation.
Even if your copy works by accident from CD-R or usual image - this is because of bugs in protection. It shouldn’t!!
DAEMON Tools provides emulation of new Securom by means of additional information in image file that is needed to describe parameters of original media. The only image format that currently allows such information is MDS (but it does not mean it has this info - it is optional). We have provided prepared MDS files for some new Securom games on our site, because no today’s dumping program currently is capable to add this info to MDS file automatically - this info was extracted by kind people from original CDs with my own internal tool and added manually to MDS.
If you are sure your game is new Securom and it does not work from virtual drive - contact me for information how to make modified MDS. We can then place it on our site so everybody can use it. Please don’t forget to specify the version of game (language), because different versions may have different image sizes.

Securom loader verifies these parameters and checks that they are indeed changing along the track which is not the case on your ‘1:1’ copy.

How? (I might have asked a similar question in the technical forum :slight_smile: )

Originally posted by alexnoe
[B]

How? (I might have asked a similar question in the technical forum :slight_smile: ) [/B]
Yeah, I know. I quoted to here because even I’m too scared to go there :wink:

I can only say that I hope he’s wrong and that this too can be corrected through software. Bad sectors at the begining of a disc briefly stopped 1 to 1 copies. Now it looks like SecureRom is trying something similar along the outer edge. (at least from what I have seen)

I dont get any read errors at the end of the disc when reading Empire Earth: Art Of Conquest (Securom V4.82.01.0027) suggesting no weak/bad sectors. Ive read from both my Lite-On, Plextor and LG DVD-Rom with all of them give the same results.

Hmmm thats odd because my Liteon 48125w definately shows signs of having read problems at the outer edge of that exact disc. Firmware VS06.

What about scratches? If they are this touchy to read, heaven help all those with little kids in the house.

“DAEMON Tools provides emulation of new Securom by means of additional information in image file that is needed to describe parameters of original media. The only image format that currently allows such information is MDS (but it does not mean it has this info - it is optional). We have provided prepared MDS files for some new Securom games on our site, because no today’s dumping program currently is capable to add this info to MDS file automatically - this info was extracted by kind people from original CDs with my own internal tool and added manually to MDS.
If you are sure your game is new Securom and it does not work from virtual drive - contact me for information how to make modified MDS. We can then place it on our site so everybody can use it. Please don’t forget to specify the version of game (language), because different versions may have different image sizes”

Following your post, I would need your assistance for Arx fatalis. No emulation is possible and the backud up fails. I would need tone to insert given in the .MCD and which the are given insertable ones
My version is v1.12, french and sécum 4.82
Thanks very much

I own Emperor: Rise of the Middle Kingdom and would be glad to help create MDS file for it. Please email me or IM me with the process to do this.

I am scared of using my CD all the time while playing the game (BTW my Diablo-II Expansion CD was damaged and I had to shell $10 to get replacement CD - since then, I am scared of using my original game CDs other than for installation).

I have Toshiba SD-1612M DVD ROM and Lite-on 48125W CD-RW.

send your suggestion here :
mailto:webmaster@daemon-tools.com

If the new secureROM can have 1:1 copies via a virtual drive and the use of mds files (which it can), then could it be possible to manipulate the way the image is burnt to fake these characteristics ? or will using DT be the only way to have a copy that works for the fore-seeable future

the spiral “track”, and its placement are the way the new securerom is detecting copies, because all cdr’s are perfect spirals with evenly placed sectors, no burner cand replicate the original patterns…

it would take a special “literaly blank” media, and a burner that could reposition the head during the write proccess to make the pitch,gap,wavering spiral track. these wont be around for a bit. and when they do arrive the media is going to be expensive, and so will the drives. additionaly, these burners would have to match the starting point and end point on a image to the original. this is very hard to do. the next biggest problem is that once these drive appear, (im guessing a year at best) sercurerom will simply tweek the image on the stamp again and make the situation repeat itself.

because of the ease of manipulation of the image prior to stamp, i seriously doubt many manufatureres are going to make the media let alone the drives. that coupled with the fact that most vendors are crc checking to prevent multiplayer cracks and the like its going to be very difficult or ridiculasly hard to get popular games duped and multiplaying. it sucks, but its fact. the protection industry is getting better, and the plan is to make it as expensive as possible to get a dupe to work.

next up is somthing simple and a real pain in the a$$, and that will be that popular multiplayer games will simply download the client engine or components each time you log-in to make cracks more difficult. that and services like elicense, downloading patchs required for play and updates are going to hit big in the few years or so…(eliscence is required to be running in order to get the patches and is required to even play the game)

im not normally a pescimist, but duping games like the old days is done and over. the decline starts here sadely.

maxx

does that mean we all go home now shut up shop and call it a day?

yes, it seems the only subject worth discussing is how to get cd-images of securom cds running with daemon-tools or similar. Concerning all other topics like “how to get it burnt on a cdr” it really seems to be “go home and call it day!”

Sloopy_DE

Originally posted by maxxcool
the spiral “track”, and its placement are the way the new securerom is detecting copies, because all cdr’s are perfect spirals with evenly placed sectors, no burner cand replicate the original patterns…

Did somebody already figure out HOW the new SecuROM determines the physical properties of a cd with the standard MMC commands which will work on all drives out there in the wild???

Sony have not figured this out yet because people are still having problems with these games using the original discs me included??? it appears the software companys are edging their bets and have decided that the percentage of people who will have problems is less than the money they loose on piracy. What they are actually saying is that because of a minority of hard core pirates they are going to class everybody as pirates. What they don’t seem to realise is that by making it harder for the general public to make back-ups they are actually making the pirates richer becuse with out hardware protection which will never happen the pirates will always get a working copy by using unlawfull means.

OK, if the image itself cannot be manipulated, could a third part program be written that does a similar thing to what DT does, except with a burnt image and not a virtual image ???

the writers that exist now, cannot intentionaly change the spiral (track) characteristics, (ie pitch up or down, deeper lighter, physicaly shorter sectors, spiral offsets etc) it would require new hareware (head technology) and a new type of medium to burn to. but theres not alot of incentive for manufatureres to make such media or drives because by the time thay can duplicate it, the sercure-rom monkeys will simply modify\create new this protection and we start all over again.

the idea is to now make it as expsensive to the end user as possible to dupe disks, and once duped require them to crack the copy to disable crc multiplayer checks (like nwn,mechwarrior engine3 and others) just to play on a lan let alone online.

maxx

as for mmc commands, sony would be the one to know most of them, and yes…there taking into account that some crap drive wont read thier disk properly, but at 1 in a 100, those odds ar in sonys / macrovisioins / securromes favor.

Originally posted by maxxcool
spiral (track) characteristics, (ie pitch up or down, deeper lighter, physicaly shorter sectors, spiral offsets etc)

I have no clue how you could measure this, do you have any ideas?

OK, if the image itself cannot be manipulated, could a third part program be written that does a similar thing to what DT does, except with a burnt image and not a virtual image ???

The first solution is to backup the images files (including .MDS) in a cdr (this could settle some size problem except with a 99 mn cdr)

The second solution could be to modify sligtly (somehow like betablocker or AWS) for example by adding a sector at the end of the image (or something lighter) so that the information needed by DAEMON-TOOLS or other software to emulate the protection could be read from the cdr .
This means :
–> The backup is not exactly a 1:1 copy
–> DAEMON-TOOLS has to be modified to take into account that (although i don’t know if it can do that on the fly like with safedisc emulation for example)
–> A new tool has to be created to make these modifications inside the image .

Originally posted by bladeproject
so how does securerom( or deamon tools ) create those uneven or varied spiral tracks???

Those varied tracks are created by the pressing machine… nothing you can do about that.

Daemon Tools emulates the protection and it works something like this: DT hides itselfs in between the Securom protected exe and your cd-drive. Whenever the protected exe examines the cd and expects certain results, DT comes in and feeds the Securom protected exe the values, so Securom thinks it is dealing with an orginal.

I am not completely sure DT works like this. In this scenario it might also be possible that the author of DT doesn’t understand how Securom works, it just inserts the bits it saw flying by while reverse enigineering the protection…