Could use some help figuring out Cinavia

vbimport

#1

I’m very new to this forum and I apologize if I’m asking some stupid questions. Also, please go easy on me if I use the wrong words or terms for various processes.

I’ve been making backups of DVD’s for quite some time, and recently decided it was time to move up to Blu-ray’s. I bought a Sony BDV-N790W which is a Blu-ray player with surround sound. The system seems to be working just fine for playing both DVD and Blu-ray discs.

The first Blu-ray disc I bought and then made a backup of was Skyfall. I followed guides that I found on this forum and used AnyDVD to rip/decrypt the disc onto my hard drive. I used BD Rebuilder to do a movie only back up. And I then used ImgBurn to burn a 25 GB disc. As far as I could tell, everything worked fine and the backup disc played just fine. Since then I have also made backups of Lincoln, and two other James Bond Blu-ray’s. Each of the disc’s I have made backups of have played fine from begining to end.

My concern is that since buying the Blu-ray sound system, several Blu-ray discs, and a stack of 25 GB BD-R’s (quite a monetary investment) I’ve been reading about Cinavia. From what I’ve been reading (in this forum and other places on the net) it seems like something’s not right. I really wish I had never heard about Cinavia (ignorance is indeed bliss!) but now I’m worried that somehow it will kick in and all my backups will be useless. Of course I can always watch the original discs but I prefer to make backup of all my discs and then file the originals away in case something happens to the backup. Anyway, can anybody tell me why the Cinavia doesn’t seem to be working.

The Blu-ray player says it was made in Oct, 2012, and I have not updated the firmware (and I have no intention of doing so). Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks


#2

These are not stupid questions at all.

I do know a bit about Cinavia, but am not an expert. I will attempt to answer a few things for you.

Cinavia is part of the AACS protection added to commercial blu ray discs. All stand alone blu ray players [B]introduced[/B] after January of 2012 are required to have Cinavia detection included. There are still some players on the market that were introduced before this time that do not have Cinavia detection. So if your player is relatively new, then yes, it does include Cinavia.

Why then is your player not stopping playback on your backup discs? The reason may simply be that the particular discs you have copied do not contain Cinavia. While Cinavia is required in hardware players, it is [B]optional[/B] for the movie studios to include it on the discs. There are only a handful of blu ray movies from studios other than Sony that contain Cinavia. The vast majority are on movies released by Sony Entertainment.

The only way the backup discs you have now will become unplayable is if your present blu ray player does not have Cinavia detection yet and you update the firmware of the player with Cinavia included. I think it is much more likely that the particular movies you have now simply don’t have Cinavia.

It is quite likely that you will eventually run into a movie that does contain Cinavia. Your backup discs will trigger the audio shutdown in that case.

There are some solutions available.


#3

Yo Rick-

Once you have a good disc it should be good for as long as the basic disc is good IMO.

Not updating the firmware is a good plan too.

Enjoy your copies.


#4

One workaround for Cinavia is the fact that blu ray players that use Mediatek chipsets do not obey the Cinavia signal found in media files. If your player happens to have a Mediatek chipset, you could therefore convert your blu ray movies to mkv files and play them unhindered. (Edit: CDan clarified this in a later post…you’ll need the mkv files on a thumb drive or hdd instead of discs)

This loophole may eventually be closed by the AACS, but it exists now.

And of course, blu ray drives in computers do not have Cinavia detection at all. The software used to play blu ray movies have been infected, but there are options to avoid them, like using a slightly older version of a commercial player (my solution), or using VLC or Media Player Classic Home Cinema to play the main movies of your blu ray backup discs.

Media players, like the Western Digital TV Live series, do not have Cinavia either, but cannot play from a disc. You’d have to transfer to a hard drive or usb drive.


#5

Thanks for the quick response. I did make a copy of Men In Black III, which is a Blu-ray put out by Sony, and it played all the way through with no problem. Guess I’ll just keep an eye on things and see what happens. My understanding is that when the Cinavia kicks in that there is a warning window that pops up and the sound cuts out, is that correct? And that it happens after 20 minutes of play? Does it make any difference if you fast forward the disc or just advance a few chapters to get past the 20 minute mark, just to make a quick check of a disc without having to play it through for the 20 minutes?


#6

Men in Black III is a movie that is reported to have Cinavia, so it looks like your player doesn’t have Cinavia detection. I’d be very careful not to update firmware on it.

Yes, you will get the warning message at approximately 20 minutes in, and loss of audio if your player has Cinavia. I don’t believe you will succeed in avoiding it by fast forwarding. The Cinavia signal is detected very, very quickly. They simply put in the 20 minute grace period to be certain…and annoying.


#7

What you also need to consider, that in some cases not all of the audio tracks are Cinavia infested. On many discs, only the English language track contains the Cinavia signal, while other languages are not affected.


#8

Only Sony BD releases have Cinavia. There are reports of a few DVDs with it, but I have not seen one. Cinavia is triggered when the audio contains the special secret encoding but the source is not AACS encrypted (store-bought BD).

Putting a media file (MKV or M2TS) on a BD disc will most likely trigger the protection on a Cinavia-enabled player. Playing the same file from USB may not trigger it. So if your player allows it, thats the work-around: rip to MKV and drop it on a thumb drive or HDD.

Oddly, a few Sony Cinavia-enabled players with Mediatek decoders also allow this work around. I’ve read about a Samsung player that would play the files if you left an encrypted BD disc in the drive. The PS3 is a unique case, since its actually a software based player and it won’t play any Cinavia encoded content - period.

Typically, Cinavia is triggered during playback after roughly 20 min of playback time. A message flashes on screen and the audio goes dead. Some players will allow you to resume playback at the same point after powering off the player - then go for another 20 min before stopping again. Lather-rinse-repeat.

The good news is that use of Cinavia will die eventually. But players may always have the detection. Cinavia is VERY expensive to implement for makers and sellers of BDs. Greed will kill Cinavia.

This from Wikki:

For Cinavia the owners Verance make their money through licensing agreements with several sections of the entertainment and media industry. As of March 2012 these licence costs due to Verance were $10,000–$300,000 per manufacturer of Blu-ray players—for the rights to embed the Cinavia detection system—plus additional software costs for the implementation itself.[8] Production facilities need to pay $50 for each audio track that is watermarked with Cinavia.[8] Distribution houses must finally pay $0.04 per disc with Cinavia watermarked content included.

That doesn’t detail the costs of hardware and software for BD authoring houses, which likely runs into six figures per authoring house. Verance also sells that hardware and software.


#9

Here is the most complete list I could find of blu ray and dvds with Cinavia. They aren’t just from Sony, but Sony certainly dominates the list.

List of DVD Releases with Cinavia

2010
Takers (Sony Pictures)
The Tourist (Sony Pictures)
The Social Network (Sony Pictures)

2011
The Roommate (Sony Pictures)
Dylan Dog Dead of Night (20th Century Fox)
Zookeeper (Sony Pictures)
Bad Teacher (Sony Pictures)

2012
Project X (Warner Bros)
Wrath of the Titans (Warner Bros)

List of Blu-ray Discs with Cinavia

2010
The Losers (Warner Bros)
Karate Kid (Sony Pictures)
Salt (Sony Pictures)
The Other Guys (Sony Pictures)
Resident Evil: Afterlife (Sony Pictures)
The Social Network (Sony Pictures)
Takers (Sony Pictures)
The Tourist (Sony Pictures)
How Do You Know (Sony Pictures)
Burlesque (Sony Pictures)

2011
The Green Hornet (Sony Pictures)
Paul (Sony Pictures)
The Adjustment Bureau (Sony Pictures)
The Social Network (Sony Pictures)
Sucker Punch (Sony Pictures)
The Roommate (Sony Pictures)
Battle: Los Angeles (Sony Pictures)
Priest (Sony Pictures)
Dylan Dog Dead Of Night (20th Century Fox)
Zookeeper (Sony Pictures)
Bad Teacher (Sony Pictures)
Larry Crowne (Universal Studios)
The Smurfs (Sony Pictures)
Friends with Benefits (Sony Pictures)
Life, Above All (Sony Pictures)
Straw Dogs (Sony Pictures)
Midnight in Paris (Sony Pictures)
Colombiana (Sony Pictures)
Don`t Be Afraid of the Dark (Sony Pictures)
Moneyball (Sony Pictures)
Higher Ground (Sony Pictures)
Courageous (Sony Pictures)
The Ides of March (Sony Pictures)
Bucky Larson: Born to Be a Star (Sony Pictures)
Restless (Sony Pictures)
Drive (Sony Pictures)
The Thing (Universal Studios)
Anonymous (Sony Pictures)
The Rum Diary (Sony Pictures)
London Boulevard (Sony Pictures)
The Skin I Live In (Sony Pictures)
Jack and Jill (Sony Pictures)
Carnage (Sony Pictures)
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo (Sony Pictures)
In the Land of Blood and Honey (Sony Pictures)
A Dangerous Method (Sony Pictures)
The Adventures of Tintin (Sony Pictures)

2012
Underworld: Awakening (Sony Pictures)
The Vow (Sony Pictures)
The Woman in Black (Sony Pictures)
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance (Sony Pictures)
In Darkness (Sony Pictures)
21 Jump Street (Sony Pictures)
Project X (Warner Bros)
Footnote (Sony Pictures)
Wrath of the Titans (Warner Bros)
Salmon Fishing in the Yemen (Sony Pictures)
Lockout (Sony Pictures)
Detention (Sony Pictures)

Edit: Here are a few more: Frankenweenie (Disney), Rock of Ages (Warner Brothers), The Campaign (Warner Brothers). Supposedly, these have Cinavia on both the blu ray and dvd versions.


#10

Yeah it’s not triggered at a specific point on the disc it’s triggered after 20 minutes of actual playback time which according to Verance is set to 20 minutes for ‘production reasons’.

You’ll find more information on Cinavia and how it operates in this thread in the Movie Copy Software forum.

[B]Wombler[/B]


#11

I’d like to thank everyone for the input.

I found some documentation from Sony that says my player does in fact have Cinavia and I have made backups of some of the movies on the list provided by Kerry56 but they played all the way through so I really don’t know what to think. Guess I’ll just keep going the way I have been and see what happens.

Thanks again, Rick


#12

That’s very odd. Maybe a glitch in that player’s firmware?