We all know Ipod is crap, and as for the scroll wheel menu system it's overrated. The navigation systems on the rivals are fairly decent. As far as i'm concerned the navi is a minor. I'm more concerned with decent battery life, ability to play all sorts of files and not the DRM wank Apple offers and the live recording capabilities. With products like the iRiver 120 and iAudio M3, Sony Minidisc and Apple iPods seem like turd.