CloneCD can't make a 1:1 copy of protected audio cd?

After copying a cd with CloneCD a part of the protection (either CDS200 or Key2Audio) is removed so the cd is playable in all (all? or most?) drives.

Why can’t CloneCD make a real 1:1 copy of audio-protected cd’s?

Of course, this ‘feature’ of CloneCD is a good thing, I think… but because I am doing research on audio-copy-protections I was wondering what is changed by CloneCD?

Anybody out there who knows more about this? Anybody outthere who understands all the entries in the ccd-file or where I can find more info? This info must be out there because a lot of programs are able to use CloneCD images (like CDMage or Daemon-tools)

Anybody knows of a tool which can handle the subchannel-data generated by CloneCD?

imho clone cd corrects the TOC before writing the image.

sorry no more answers availiable (for your other questions) in my brain :wink:

InSOMniA

Strange , that daemontools, etc can “simulate” copy protections.
It would be nice if we could burn that part of software on a copied ceedee, so every cd could be copied

Not strange at all. DAEMON Tools, simply said, uses a virtual-CD-ROM to ‘inject’ the copy-protection when asked for (e.g. when starting the game).

can this "injection"not be done on the image??

Originally posted by Upp3rd0G
[B]Anybody out there who knows more about this? Anybody out there who understands all the entries in the ccd-file or where I can find more info? This info must be out there because a lot of programs are able to use CloneCD images (like CDMage or Daemon-tools)

Anybody knows of a tool which can handle the subchannel-data generated by CloneCD? [/B]

Nobody??? :frowning: Maybe some tips where I might find some more info?

(Need more input… :stuck_out_tongue: )

Originally posted by damiandimitri
can this "injection"not be done on the image??

It doesn’t work by acting as if the protection is there. It works by intercepting requests to the guard module and replying “everything’s okay”

Originally posted by Upp3rd0G
[B] Anybody out there who knows more about this? Anybody outthere who understands all the entries in the ccd-file or where I can find more info? This info must be out there because a lot of programs are able to use CloneCD images (like CDMage or Daemon-tools)

Anybody knows of a tool which can handle the subchannel-data generated by CloneCD?[/B]

The Daemon tools authors found the info by asking Olli about it. I suggest you do the same (please forward me his info). As for the TOC fix, there’s an option when burning to fix the TOC or keep it as is, but why wouldn’t you want to fix it?

Originally posted by SirDavidGuy
[B]The Daemon tools authors found the info by asking Olli about it. I suggest you do the same (please forward me his info).

As for the TOC fix, there’s an option when burning to fix the TOC or keep it as is, but why wouldn’t you want to fix it? [/B]

After more research, a lot about the .CCD entries is clear now, most of the fields follow the description of the P & Q subchannels description completely (described in ECMA-130), so that is less of a problem right now.

I am doing research to audio copy protections. At the moment I found out that the fix of CloneCD on a CDS200 protected cd only affects one entry of the .CCD file (which is clearly the file which describes the entries of the TOC). After this fix in 1 entry the cd is playable in my LiteOn which couldn’t read the orginal. But I still don’t understand why that setting for that particular entry is apperently that important…

But for the rest of the subchannel tricks (do they use R-W subchannel tricks in CDS200) I am still completely in the dark…

I need a way to read/display/access the subchannel data generated by CloneCD… I also need to know more on what the effects are of the use of the illegal multi-session trick CDS200 uses… (see my other question on creating multi-session cd’s in general questions)

Still a lot of work to do… and I even haven’t started on Key2Audio… :frowning:

:cool:

No, Cactus 200 doesn’t use sub-channel tricks, which is lucky, because(as far as I can tell) the *.sub file doesn’t make any sense.

But I still don’t understand why that setting for that particular entry is apperently that important…

It’s the number of sessions, right? My memory is rusty, but doesn’t Cactus 200 work using 2 sessions, and many readers will only report the second session.

Originally posted by SirDavidGuy
[B]No, Cactus 200 doesn’t use sub-channel tricks, which is lucky, because(as far as I can tell) the *.sub file doesn’t make any sense.

It’s the number of sessions, right? My memory is rusty, but doesn’t Cactus 200 work using 2 sessions, and many readers will only report the second session. [/B]

How did you examine the subchannels?

Yes, CDS200 uses 2 sessions. But they use an illegal format, namely: session 1: audio tracks, session 2: datatracks mode 1. The only official format available (enhanced music cd/cd plus) says that the data in session 2 has to be of type 2… Then there is this modified entry describing anything after the first session.

Is this assumption correct?

end of first session | postgap | lead in second session | pregap second session | data second session

??? If so, then there is a modification in the lead in. But I don’t understand that…

:confused:

Originally posted by SirDavidGuy
As for the TOC fix, there’s an option when burning to fix the TOC or keep it as is, but why wouldn’t you want to fix it?

When writing the image CloneCD give you 3 options you can check: (AWS,) don’t repair subs, always close last session.

It doesn’t matter if you choose ‘always close last session’ or not, the resulting backup has a corrected TOC. The same goes for the option ‘don’t repair subs’. Apparently, CDS200 doesn’t make use of open sessions…

But I was wondering:

Isn’t it true that the lead-in (where the TOC is ) and lead-out are always generated by the writer? (When I check the CloneCD image with CDMage there is no lead-in/-out/pregap/postgap info in the image included.) Thus this means that the writer corrects the TOC…, at least in my case with the Plextor PX-W4220T. Besides this, it might still be possible that CloneCD corrects TOC-entries when reading the image, maybe the reader corrects some TOC-errors as well… Hmm… another thing: can the TOC be read raw??? Or is have we here the same principle: the TOC is just an interpreted version returned by the reader???

:confused:

Still a lot of questions… anybody have some more info on TOC’s and how they are read/written/generated?

:slight_smile:

TOC can’t be 100% generateed from the writer, since things like EAL modify the TOC.

Or is have we here the same principle: the TOC is just an interpreted version returned by the reader???

I’ll have to check the standards on this, but I don’t think it can.

Originally posted by SirDavidGuy
TOC can’t be 100% generateed from the writer, since things like EAL modify the TOC.

No, that is not correct… Exact Audio Lock just modifies the .CCD file. I guess that CloneCD orders the writer to generate a TOC based on the entries found in the .CCD file

BTW, SirDavidGuy: I am still curious on how you examined the subchannel files!

Originally posted by Upp3rd0G
[B]

No, that is not correct… Exact Audio Lock just modifies the .CCD file. I guess that CloneCD orders the writer to generate a TOC based on the entries found in the .CCD file
[/B]

That’s what I meant. Sorry for being unclear.

BTW, SirDavidGuy: I am still curious on how you examined the subchannel files!

Wordpad. I’m writing a program that’ll let you examine the *.img file without having a huge amount of ram.

Originally posted by SirDavidGuy
I’m writing a program that’ll let you examine the *.img file without having a huge amount of ram.

I am using CDMage ( http://www.geocities.com/cdmage/ ) for viewing the contents of the image file. Works fine!

:smiley:

I mean viewing it like

sector 2489: Val: 24FFE ECC: F3E602

Or whatever it has the format as.

You can view the content of the sector, but it is probably after error-correction. I am not completely sure, have to check first, but that has to wait till the weekend.

:smiley:

Originally posted by Upp3rd0G
[B]You can view the content of the sector, but it is probably after error-correction. I am not completely sure, have to check first, but that has to wait till the weekend.

:smiley: [/B]

Good news! I checked it and for data sectors it gives you the following fields contained in 2352 bytes of data per sector:

offsets, sync, header, subheader, edc, intermediate, ecc P, ecc Q, data

I guess this is also perfect for viewing the content of SafeDisk’s weak sectors!

But I still need a tool to view the content of subchannels!

:slight_smile:

Edit:

Another good thing of CdMage is that is doesn’t matter if your image doesn’t comply to the standard cd-formats (audio-cd, data-cd, multi-session cd, cd-extra, mix-mode cd, enhanced cd, etc…) like the CDS200 structure described above. Other programs like WinIso or Fireburner all complain and won’t load the image when there is an illegal format inside the image.

[edit2]
Hmm… the above stated about CDMage being able to read all my CloneCD image-files is not completely true, it won’t read my Key2Audio image file… interesting…
[/edit2]

Interesting info here.

About the reading of TOC…

The TOC can be read 100% - not sure for non-standard CDs though. But some readers might not support these commands and CloneCD will have to generate a TOC for those readers. There are several read TOC commands - one of which will return full TOC info (see link below).

Here are some of my findings and points:

TOC info is stored in subchannel Q info in the lead in area. CloneCD will still have to store this somewhere - either as raw or in it’s own format - probably in .CCD file.

There is a chance that the read TOC commands (the drive) will return a corrected TOC - we need a way to confirm this - if someone would write a tool to read full TOC command and display info (this would be Q subchannel info) that makes sense to us?

Some readers can read part of the lead in area - but I noticed (using my own self made CD reading tool) on a Plextor 8432A that these are not in the TOC. I don’t know enough about this but the TOC doesn’t take all of the Q subchannel in the lead in (150 sectors) does it? I beleive it would take up some of those sectors and they are not read by the reader using sector read command.

This might be a useful link for you - these are the drafts of SCSI devices standard programming specs (and commands as used by all writing software - including CloneCD):

http://www.t10.org/scsi-3.htm

look at MMC-2 it’s an interesting read.

Any commands not listed in there will not be possible by any writing software unless they have custom specs from particular writers. Example, AWS in CloneCD isn’t in the specs and therefore it is software generated (trick/method) and is not done by the writer.

Very interesting link! Thanx for the info! The content of a .CCD file is a precise replica of the fields return by the read-toc command specified in the mmc-2 command set! Nice to know that!

But until now, I haven’t found a command for raw-reading the TOC. But I haven’t read the whole document (duh! 350 pages…) but I definitely will!

Your conclusions about the TOC are correct, that is general info. CloneCD stores the info of the Q-channel of the TOC in the .CCD file, don’t know if the rest of the subchannels are stored in the subchannel-file. Still haven’t found a program for looking into the subchannel file (besides a hexeditor). Anyone?

Some readers can read part of the lead in area - but I noticed (using my own self made CD reading tool) on a Plextor 8432A that these are not in the TOC. I don’t know enough about this but the TOC doesn’t take all of the Q subchannel in the lead in (150 sectors) does it? I beleive it would take up some of those sectors and they are not read by the reader using sector read command.

I am sorry, don’t understand what you say here :frowning:

Plextor is indeed able to overread into lead-in/-out. Maybe that is the entrance into raw-reading of the TOC…

Here are some interesting links on general info on cds, also on the TOC.


http://www.chipchapin.com/CDMedia/

If you have any interesting links for me, please let me know!

BTW, I am interested in your self made CD reading tool, would it be possible to have a copy and give it a try? Please PM me.

:smiley: