CloneCD and Enhanced CDs

vbimport

#1

You can’t expect CloneCD to produce a perfect copy of an Enhanced CD. Here’s why…

Sectors of program area in session 1, from the first until the one before INDEX turns to 01:

There are two flavors for this; Philips and Sony. Both decrease MIN, SEC and FRAME,
but the initial value corresponds to the length of the period for Philips, so it has an ending value
of 00:00.01 while the initial value for Sony is the lenght of the period minus 1, giving an ending value of 00:00.00.
CloneCD happens to write only Philips style for all audio CDs, enhanced or not. The length is fixed to 150 sectors,
this last means there will be a secuence like …00:00.02, 00:00.01, 00:00.32… for a CD that has 182 sectors
between lead-in and TNO 1, INDEX 1. Extras like MCN, ISRC and overwritten audio are also lost here.

Sectors of leadout area in session 1:

The area gets reduced from 6750 to 2250 sectors, MCN is ignored and instead of holding
on 1 during 2 to 3 seconds and then alternate @ 2 Hz, P=1 during the whole leadout.

Sectors of lead-in in session 2:

The area gets extended from 4500 to 9000 sectors, and here the mode 1 and 2 sectors are replaced by mode 0 ones.

Sectors after session 2’s lead-in and before data track’s INDEX 1:

It keeps the mode of data sectors, but changes TNO notation from BCD to HEX.

Sectors of leadout in session 2:

Here mode 1 and 2 sectors are replaced by 0 mode ones too. And instead of holding
on 1 during 2 to 3 seconds and then alternate @ 2 Hz, P=1 during the whole leadout.
The 4 Enhanced CDs tested have shown patterns like 45AAD10000000255331852DC,
45AAD1000000026721374985, 45AAD10000000274393289C9 and 45AAD10000000274015739F6
replacing 3 of each 6 subcode blocks into leadout, this isn’t replicated by CloneCD too.


#2

Hi bud, hope you’ve been doing well.

I would love to know what drives you used that allow you to read the first 2 seconds (pause) of any session and which allow you to read ‘all’ of leadout. I have tested many drives and only some early Plextor SCSI drives would let me read part of the pause (last 1 second…back to 00:01:00) and only a portion of leadout. Please let me know so we can get and test/use some of the drives that you are using.

Also, for the ‘but changes TNO notation from BCD to HEX’. Have you tried a single session audio CD that has more than 10 tracks? I’ve seen several drives that report track 10 as 0x0A. I had to write special code to check for this and report it as decimal as I wished.

Thanks man. Hope to hear from you soon.

RM


#3

Hello Rich!

Last Plextor drives can overread until sector -75 and 100 sectors into last leadout.
The Premium II allowed me to read 1st leadout and a little bit of second lead-in
(6 sectors). It can also read the full program area in session 2.
As far as I know the only case in which you can read the whole
outer leadout is the one of CD-R and CD-RW.

Also, for the ‘but changes TNO notation from BCD to HEX’. Have you tried a single session audio CD that has more than 10 tracks?
The BCD to HEX change was observed in a second session’s first pause, where TNO is likely to be 10+, I still haven’t seen single session CDs starting with TNO other than 01.

Thanks for your interest and have a nice day. :slight_smile:


#4

Hello all.

I’ve just found a method to measure leadout,
discovering CloneCD writes 30 seconds (2250
sectors) less than the standard outer leadout,
you can find details about the procedure here:
http://club.cdfreaks.com/f52/how-measure-leadout-249960/


#5

I have come accross something interesting today…

I have got a drive which starts with subchannel sector offset -2 (on track 1, data) but switches to -1 while reading into the pregap (00:02.00) of track 2 (audio). Pregap is from relative -00:01.74 to (-)00:00.00, I checked it using my own mini-tool for just performing “blind” READ CD commands.

According to the TOC track 2 starts at LBA 21276, the P/Q subchannel data returned for this sector is:

00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  01 02 01 00 00 [b]01[/b] 00 04 45 52 EF 11

The P/Q subchannel data for sector at LBA 0 is:

00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  41 01 01 00 00 [b]02[/b] 00 00 02 02 4C F3

What makes it even worse is the data on sectors at LBA 21123 to 21129:

00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  41 01 01 04 41 50 00 04 43 50 6B BE
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  01 02 00 00 01 74 00 04 43 51 49 76
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  01 02 00 00 01 73 00 04 43 52 1E C1
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  01 02 00 00 01 73 00 04 43 52 1E C1
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  01 02 00 00 01 72 00 04 43 53 A4 B1
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  01 02 00 00 01 71 00 04 43 54 3A 84
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  01 02 00 00 01 70 00 04 43 55 80 F4

The subchannel data reporting a relative MSF of -00:01.73 is duplicated so obviously the switch from subchannel data offset -2 to - 1 takes place from sectors 21125 to 21126. I’m curious about the P subchannel data for sector 21124, shouldn’t it contain just all ones or am I wrong here?

I wondered how CloneCD would handle this when making an image and it seems like it would realign subchannel data for each track start. In this case it looks like it switched from -2 to -1 on LBA 21276 as the following content taken from sector 21274 was simply “dropped”:

FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  01 02 00 00 00 00 00 04 45 50 22 D1

Instead, the -00:01.73 duplicate subchannel data is held in the image which (correct me if I’m wrong) is definitely not what a CloneCD image is intended to look like.

But if you think that just CloneCD has problems with this strange behavior of my drive, you’re wrong. Exact Audio Copy 0.99 prebeta 3 reports the following pregap lengths for track 2:

00:02.01 for Method B, unexact and exact
00:02.00 for Method A
00:01.68 for Method B, secure
00:00.00 for Method C

I don’t know what those Methods do and don’t know of any place where it could described. For this case, Method A seems to be the most accurate one.

— stop here if you don’t want to read my personal opinion —

I’m glad to see that with PerfectRip things become clearer a little bit. For a too long time we had to live with the hocus-pocus sold along with products like Alcohol, CloneCD and even Exact Audio Copy (“what we do is perfect but we leave you in the dark about how it’s done”). Nobody was really willing to spread knowledge about how this all works, what the problems of reading audio tracks are and that just by using tools like CloneCD in most cases you will not get “perfect” images. Not to forget that CloneCD does nothing in order to correct the main channel sector offset of a drive.

It’s a pity that there are still so many people with half knowledge thinking that any established tool like CloneCD is the best you can use and will always produce perfect images. It’s not and the same is for the hardware.

Anyway, they can’t be blamed for it - if nobody clarifies the background no one would understand. And half knowledge spreads like wildfire, especially nowadays. And I have had it long enough for myself, not even knowing if I’m really over it.

BTW: I would be pleased to see PerfectRip becoming Open Source for exactly that reasons, so people might learn and understand the technical background.


#6

…and welcome to the forum.

I have got a drive which starts with subchannel sector offset -2 (on track 1, data) but switches to -1 while reading into the pregap (00:02.00) of track 2 (audio).

These shiftings can be caused by the drive, by the disc
or by both, Plextor drives come aligned by design, do you
have access to one of them? It could help tell the origin.

Pregap is from relative -00:01.74 to (-)00:00.00, I checked it using my own mini-tool for just performing “blind” READ CD commands.

That’s a Sony style pause, isn’t this a PlayStation disc?

The subchannel data reporting a relative MSF of -00:01.73 is duplicated so obviously the switch from subchannel data offset -2 to - 1 takes place from sectors 21125 to 21126. I’m curious about the P subchannel data for sector 21124, shouldn’t it contain just all ones or am I wrong here?

Subcode iteration can take place in the disc or drive,
about the P subchannel spec says: “The encoding of
channel P is delayed by one subcoding block with
respect to the encoding of channel Q.”.

I wondered how CloneCD would handle this when making an image and it seems like it would realign subchannel data for each track start. In this case it looks like it switched from -2 to -1 on LBA 21276 as the following content taken from sector 21274 was simply “dropped”:

Code:
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 01 02 00 00 00 00 00 04 45 50 22 D1
Instead, the -00:01.73 duplicate subchannel data is held in the image which (correct me if I’m wrong) is definitely not what a CloneCD image is intended to look like.

If you’re disabling subchannel reading under reader
or profile settings, you can trust me, CloneCD is messy
at reauthoring, just take a look at the track start flags
(P channel). Best you can do is ask for a clonic image by
enabling subchanel reading under reader and profile settings.

Sectors and subcode blocks from 00:02.00 until the end of
program area will be cloned (that includes mastering faults
and copy protection information).

But if you think that just CloneCD has problems with this strange behavior of my drive, you’re wrong. Exact Audio Copy 0.99 prebeta 3 reports the following pregap lengths for track 2:

00:02.01 for Method B, unexact and exact
00:02.00 for Method A
00:01.68 for Method B, secure
00:00.00 for Method C

I don’t know what those Methods do and don’t know of any place where it could described. For this case, Method A seems to be the most accurate one.

I don’t know how the methods work too (if they work at
all), but I don’t trust them even when using my Plextors.

Maybe you should give PerfectRip a try, it’s enabled to
compensate for shifts commonly found in PlayStation CDs
(including mixed mode ones), and even from faulty drives
or from both factors combined. Under all circumstances,
PerfectRip imaging process replaces CloneCD’s one,
since it also features offset correction, C2 support
and MMC’s 100b packed mode reading capability.


#7

Thanks for your quick reply and your friendly salutation. :slight_smile:

These shiftings can be caused by the drive, by the disc
or by both, Plextor drives come aligned by design, do you
have access to one of them? It could help tell the origin.
[…]
Maybe you should give PerfectRip a try, it’s enabled to
compensate for shifts commonly found in PlayStation CDs
(including mixed mode ones), and even from faulty drives
or from both factors combined. Under all circumstances,
PerfectRip imaging process replaces CloneCD’s one,
since it also features offset correction, C2 support
and MMC’s 100b packed mode reading capability.

I already gave PerfectRip a try, if I remember correctly it was complaining about a big amount of erroneuous Q subchannel data (regardless which CD I used) and another special feature of my drive is that it reports read errors instead of data on a few sectors on audio tracks of each disc I tried (different LBAs for each disc) when reading with subchannel mode 001b. This happens with PerfectRip, CDTool, CloneCD and Alcohol aswell.

While writing this it might be that I used subchannel mode 100b when PerfectRip complained about erroneous data. A reason for that could be the following…

When reading with subchannel mode 100b it returns data without any problem for these sectors, but subchannel data is made up like this, which looks a little bit odd to me:

01200102531800583572000000000000
11060411000000400000000000004040
00000000000000000000404040000000
00000000000000000040004040000000
00400000000040400000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000 (as displayed in CD Tool)

Due to the read errors I will buy a new drive soon, and it will be a Plextor. Do you have a quick recommendation for one of the newest Plextor drives (should be a DVD-writer)? I will then re-check this CD.

Then I will use PerfectRip exclusively to make images, as what it does is being made transparent to the user by putting log entries etc. and name things like they should be named, e.g. the subchannel reading mode - I only see pros here and no cons.

That’s a Sony style pause, isn’t this a PlayStation disc?

The CD is from the PC game “Soccer Kid”, from 1994, and it claims to be “mastered by nimbus” (‘printed’ on the inner ring of the CD, I don’t know the correct term for this). And I also don’t know if this reveals any relation to Sony. :slight_smile:


#8

Hi again Feltzkrone.

I already gave PerfectRip a try, if I remember correctly it was complaining about a big amount of erroneuous Q subchannel data (regardless which CD I used)

PerfectRip’s total corrupt Q subcode blocks report
counts the 16-bit CRC mismatches, found in that
channel because of pre-mastering faults, random
defects originated between mastering and pressing,
or burning or readout errors by the drive. Of course
scratches, dust and fingerprints play a role here too.

Spec establishes a limit for random errors: the BLER
(BLock Error Rate) averaged over any 10 s shall be
less than 3 x 10^-2. BLER is measured at the input
of C1 decoder, blocks are erroneus when at least a
symbol is erroneus and symbols are erroneus when
at least a bit is erroneus. All this happens at main
channel and unfortunately I see no spec for subs,
but you can understand now that random errors
aren’t necessarily an indication of a faulty drive.

Are you a radical CDFreak? CDGTool is for you…
This tool was created to work in combination with a
100b capable drive, the objective was perfect subs
and it was acomplished, a couple of Reed-Solomon
hardware decoders correct random errors in channels
R to W and CDGTool does it for channels P and Q.

and another special feature of my drive is that it reports read errors instead of data on a few sectors on audio tracks of each disc I tried (different LBAs for each disc) when reading with subchannel mode 001b. This happens with PerfectRip, CDTool, CloneCD and Alcohol aswell.

I suspect drive isn’t full subchannel reading compatible.

While writing this it might be that I used subchannel mode 100b when PerfectRip complained about erroneous data. A reason for that could be the following…

When reading with subchannel mode 100b it returns data without any problem for these sectors, but subchannel data is made up like this, which looks a little bit odd to me:

01200102531800583572000000000000
11060411000000400000000000004040
00000000000000000000404040000000
00000000000000000040004040000000
00400000000040400000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000000 (as displayed in CD Tool)

I wouldn’t attempt doing a 100b read without
making sure 001b works properly in the first place.
The 40s are normal under this reading format, they
make evident the presence of 1s in Q channel, see:

40
0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
P Q R S T U V W

But, I’m not familiar with the first row and a half. :confused:

Due to the read errors I will buy a new drive soon, and it will be a Plextor. Do you have a quick recommendation for one of the newest Plextor drives (should be a DVD-writer)? I will then re-check this CD.

I can’t recommend on newest Plextors because I haven’t
tested them, I did so for my 4 models and none was perfect, :disagree:
anyway I would pick the Premium II, the Premium, the 760 or 716,
in that precise order, I’ll try to post my tests’ results and reasons.


#9

Done,

I posted my findings about Plex audio/data cuesheet writing
here: http://club.cdfreaks.com/f52/plex-faulty-cuesheet-write-250762/